If the descentralization of social networks continue, we will have to prepare for the eventual rise of the instances wars, where people will start to fight about which instance is better and which one is weird to be in and so on, but that’s for the future of us all.
The biggest problem with lemmy and decentralization right now is that for optimal performance you need to spread out the load relatively evenly between instances. The problem is that users tend to go where other users are (otherwise why go there) and that naturally leads to clumping on one or few instances which causes it to overload.
The way to solve it is to avoid having generic “anything goes” instances and instead have instances be focused on a specific topic. For example, have gaming instance, a personal finance/investing instance, all things home ownership and improvement instance, etc. You can have multiple communities per instance as long as they stay within the same general topic. This way users will naturally spread out by subscribing to different instances based on topics they’re interested in. And that will solve the performance issue we’re seeing with lemmy.world or other popular instances.
And that’s exactly what’s supposed to happen. Instance wars and eventual defederation and fragmentation are important moderation tools, and will progress the culture and feel of instances and regions of the Fediverse. Many instances will form federated [cliques](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clique_(graph_theory) that are highly connected and have similar vibes and cultures, and some will be federated with multiple cliques, showing users a variety of cultures and situations.
If the Fediverse reaches a large enough number of people, it can support multiple independant cliques, and enable users see entire mini-universes with different communities and vibes.
imma have undercover alts everywhere for the sole purpose of getting all the cats communities in one page.
Your legend well be carved into the pages of history as the first person to complete the catalog!
My man !
One benefit that people don’t talk about enough is it naturally tends towards smaller community sizes than in a centralized system which is a better fit for our tribal human brains.
We’re not great with speaking into a room with 1,000 people in it, much less a million.
The problem is that it’s worse for keeping topics centralized and fragments communities for external reasons. It’s antithetical to the idea of a link aggregator where you centralize all of your news if you need to use several of them to make it work. Defederation should be a last resort to protect the admins from legal action, content manipulation, or brigading, not because beehaw thinks open signups harm their safe space. Making the internet a safe space is how we got to this point with Twitter/Google/meta/reddit, and everyone wants to do it all over again to rebuild their echo chambers.
Perhaps keeping topics de-centralized is a key part of keeping systems from turning tyrannical. That’s the theory behind the term “totalitarian”: that too much unification of thought produces behavioral restrictions, via the justification that if the truth of each topic is known and indisputable, then there’s no reason to share power in society as long as the person in power knows the One Truth.
Centralized systems designed to uncover one clear answer, such as stack overflow, have every reason to fight against redundancy in answers. Anything rightly called a community though should not be built around the (totalitarian) idea that conversations are best centralized and made non-redundant.
Big important questions need to be rehashed millions of times, not just covered once with millions of audience members.
99% of the content people post and interact with doesn’t have a reason for multiple copies of it’s conversation to exist. Most content is consumed not discusses.
Yet when a person arrives and asks a question they are discussing. If they wanted to consume, the could.
And the vast majority of the users consume the answers, not the discussion. They don’t ask the questions, hey look them up, and if no one asked, or no one answered, they can’t find anything and just give up. They don’t ask.
And some of them don’t even bother with trying to look it up. They just ask, because they like that method of getting information.
I agree, and I’ve already seen this happen!
One popular instance, Beehaw announced that they defederated from lemmy.world and shitjustworks to protect itself from an onslaught of new folks. Beehaw’s admins say that lemmy.world and shitjustworks have let in a lot of folks who aren’t well vetted and are the focus of most moderation action, so they’re restricting access from those two instances.
And I’m over here on an instance with 600 users like, “Hm. That’s a pity. Glad I’m not as basic as those poor folks.”
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I get the sentiment and that is sarcasm and all, but this could still be hurtful to some people. Let’s grow past dick size humor because I know that lemmings are better than that.
The way to get over something is to adapt, not avoid it.
It’s funny that dick size is a thing we care about. Some guys get big dicks, some get small ones, some guys let it define them, other guys don’t, some women admit they like big dicks, some don’t admit it, some actually don’t. Life is full of horror and it’s funny.
The more things you have to avoid the worse off you are.
Plus every time someone makes a dick size joke I think about randy marshs dick size formula. The time and effort he spend to make his dick be average size always cracks me up.
Like who cares about your dick size? Relatively few people get to see it anyways and if they judge you for it you’re probably better of without them.
Humor police? No thank you…
I think there will eventually be a “safe space” subfederation for people with a fragile sense of humor. We can all coexist.
It’s called beehaw, pretty much.
Yeah, question their morals or say they eat cats, lol
lemmy.world and lemmy.ml users competing whos the most generic NPC
pawb.social users not existing
lemm.ee and vlemmy.net users actually being based
I used to be an adventurer like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
Lemmy.zip users hoping the hamster has a few more months of running on the wheel to keep the servers powered until a new hamster can be purchased.
lol
feddit.de über Allen!
/s
Email is federated as well, but I never saw anything I could call email instance wars. You can use whichever you want, no one really cares.
If I see an sbcglobal, aol, hotmail, or yahoo, I will assume tech illiteracy
haha, I do have a @hotmail.com account. Granted, nowadays I use it mainly as my “spam” account (to be clear: I’m not sending spam, it’s the account I give when I’m required to give an email or create an account) but hotmail was a big thing in the old days before gmail and that account still has sentimental value to me.
I chose my Gmail name when I was invited to it (it was invitation-only at the time), and it’s not the greatest name. I use it because I have decades of tuning it with filters and rules. But when Microsoft launched “outlook.com” I made an account with my real name as soon as I could, which I use for resumes and similar reasons.
I no longer assume Hotmail users are less literate than users of other email providers. Gmail or iCloud seem to be the default platforms for illiterate people today. Who only get an account because they have to for their phone. It’s so weird to me that my kids think email is archaic. I was a teenager before my family got email. And yes, we had one family email address. We had one family computer and one family landline. I was in college before I got my own email address and telephone number (thanks to my dorm Landline). Yet to my kids, it might as well be a fax machine.
I have a Hotmail account for the same reason. I’ve got a few things that still send to my Hotmail, like government and banking stuff, so I’ve just kept it. Outside of work, I don’t email much anyway so it’s not much to look after 2 accounts.
Gmail vs Hotmail vs Yahoo was pretty big, and before that, AOL.
Gmail vs Hotmail was easy. Gmail started at 1GB for your emails. At the same time, Hotmail was 2MB. Yes M and B
I mean, email was text or richtext. Occasionally a 35 kB gif that you’d laugh at and then delete.
Part of the issue was that Hotmail was completely inept at blocking spam, which had lots of text and images. I ran out of space daily
I completely forgot that there was almost no spam filtering back then. It was awful. I takey smart machine learning spam filters for granted.
If I ever saw @aol.com as front desk in a hotel, I knew I was potentially in for a bad time!
What did @hotmail.com tell you?
I’ll answer this one. In my experience they used to know a little more back in the day. Tread lightly, it could go either way.
Yeah, I definitely never judge people for having a comcast.net email address.
Seeing boomers on here talking about email addresses is weird since everyone my age just defaults to Gmail unless it’s a work or school address that was just assigned to you
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💀
What if there was an app that let you log in to multiple lemmy accounts at once, aggregated the lot into one seamless feed, and used the relevant account for each interaction? Maybe even going as far as to automatically cross-post any submission to duplicate communities and aggregate that too.
Don’t we kinda already have them?
Any good guides on all the instances?
I want to pick sides early so I can feast on the blood of those who dared choose differently.
Well, there are the fascists(exploding-heads.com) and the communists(lemmygrad.ml) for a start.
You have some national instances such as lemmy.ca, aussie.zone, feddit.de, feddit.nl, feddit.uk and feddit.it.
Beehaw is busy building their ivory tower by defederating anyone with a slightly different oppinion so i’d say they are the centrists or maybe the swiss.
Other than that the rest is pretty much the same, if you ask me.
You forgot about kbin. It’s kinda here, but not really
It’s only until they have better mod tools.
Yes, but they chose that route rather than for example expand their admin-team.
They would rather remain a small tight knit community than expand for fear of loosing their core values.
I’m disagree with their aproach but understand their reasoning. In the context of a instance war however I think they’d avoid conflict and thus remain impartial.
Just stay away from Lemmy.nz we…I mean they are VERY southern
This will likely follow a similar pattern to email, since it’s starting from a very similar position.
At some point people will begin to assign identities to instances and imagine (rightly or wrongly) that being on an instance says something about a person. People do that with cars, shoes, and yes, even email domains.
From a technical perspective, right now Lemmy is as anonymous as can be — I’ve yet to see an instance that requires ANY kind of verification. I didn’t need to provide an email address, phone number, or any other identifying information to sign up. Didn’t even need to solve a captcha. I just choose a name and set a password and BOOM! I was in.
Once upon a time, email worked this way, too. Then came the spammers, scammers, and other bad actors, and this was deemed untenable. Nowadays, any email provider that allows anonymous signup is likely to be blocked by most of the email-using world. You won’t be able to use them to sign up for other services, and you might not even have your mail accepted by other providers.
This will definitely become a problem as Lemmy becomes popular, and instance admins will need to crack down, lest they be overrun and defederated by the rest of the world.
I’m not sure what the answer is. This is a problem that has not been adequately solved, IMHO. A few bad apples spoil the bunch. That’s been true since long before the Internet.
I had to verify with email to sign up for this?
Actually tbh I’m not even sure what anyone here is even talking about…federations and instances? I thought this was just a new Reddit but with a different back end.
From a technical perspective, right now Lemmy is as anonymous as can be — I’ve yet to see an instance that requires ANY kind of verification. I didn’t need to provide an email address, phone number, or any other identifying information to sign up. Didn’t even need to solve a captcha. I just choose a name and set a password and BOOM! I was in.
Sopuli made me write a little paragraph about myself before they let me in
even email domains.
No joke. During my interview for a bell company my email came up for whatever reason and thier response was “oh! You use Gmail!”. Like I was hired on the spot because of it. It was very strange.
At some point people will begin to assign identities to instances and imagine (rightly or wrongly) that being on an instance says something about a person.
*Cough
Might be true on sdf, but on lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works, there are captchas and email addresses.
Wait - what kind of proof of identity do Gmail, outlook, Yahoo, etc require to make an email address?
From a technical perspective, right now Lemmy is as anonymous as can be — I’ve yet to see an instance that requires ANY kind of verification. I didn’t need to provide an email address, phone number, or any other identifying information to sign up
Not exactly anonymous…
Lemmy will most likely go the way of 4chan, they’ll ban connections from all major VPN services and start banning users via IP.
I’m sure that it’s a little more complicated than that with a federated network. Since you can host your own lemmy instance you could hide your information behind that.
I’d guess it’s a mix of your post and the parent post. Lemmy instances will have a user verification policy and de-federate with instances that differ too much. So the Lemmy instances with emai verification and 2FA will eventually de-federate from an instance that wants to be anonymous and has zero requirements for creating an account.
Maybe curse me for bringing the idea up, could a Lemmy instance exclusively use Facebook’s login features? So that you have to use “login with Facebook account” to create a Lemmy user on the instance?
Maybe curse me for bringing the idea up, could a Lemmy instance exclusively use Facebook’s login features? So that you have to use “login with Facebook account” to create a Lemmy user on the instance?
Oh god.
I don’t think the Lemmy code base supports that yet, but adding OAuth support is a natural thing to do at some point. I guess if you were dedicated you could hack it together yourself in your own instance even now.
As horrible as it is the implementation would take Facebook only a few days since lemmy is open source. The “problem” with an open system ist that basically everybody can join
Facebook will definitely hide behind a Facebook logins defederate everything that they don’t like to “protect” their users.
It’s already occurring. If you have an account on esploding head you can’t set content from some places and people will reply to you in aggressive ways based on preconceived notions. I know if I see a commie or tanky making comments I view as shitty then I am already doing it too.
I don’t want it to be mainstream. I just want it to be Good.
There is nothing better than a good old tribe war.
One of the oldest human pastimes, hating people who are different from you in some way, no matter how inconsequential.
“You ever notice that? Any time you see two groups of people who really hate each other, chances are good they’re wearing different kind of hats. Keep an eye on that, it might be important.” - George Carlin
Ah shit they should bring back tribes, I miss that game.
Goddam you made me nostalgic. Wonder how slow i would be today… Sloooooow
Nothing drives down real estate prices like a good old-fashioned gang war.
The fact that all instances talk to each other, makes me think we likely won’t have wars.
I mean I’m subscribed to beehaw and kbin communities. And everything in between.
That’s totally something a kbin user would say.
I’m new… What are Beehaw and kbin?
Beehaw is a large lemmy instance which is notable for defederating from some other large instances recently due to their own admin policy. Kbin is an alternate federated platform similar to Lemmy, and the two can mostly work with each other.
Is kbin not an instance of Lemmy? As in, using the Lemmy source code?
Kbin and lemmy are different implementations of the activitypub protocol https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ActivityPub
What are instances and federations?
I just thought that it was Reddit, but with a different backend. But people are talking like there’s more to it than that…
Ok so Lemmy itself isn’t really a single app or service like Reddit, rather it’s a software project that people can run on their own servers. It’s a bit like email in that regard, anyone can run an email server, or you can just join someone else’s like Gmail (think of instances as being like these). Instances can have their own rules and customisations, but they all still talk email (in lemmys case, something called activitypub) and work together, and you can send and receive content from other people even if they’re on a different email provider (lemmy instance). Federating is basically two different instances agreeing to connect and share their content with each other. This generally happens by default. Defederating is the opposite, deciding to stop sending and receiving content from a particular instance.
Email is also a federated platform just like Lemmy. You can have email clients that talk to email servers, but “email” itself isn’t really an app you can just run, it’s a collection of apps and servers that all work together. Lemmy is very similar.
Also worth noting, the language (or protocol, to use the technical term) that Lemmy uses to talk between instances is called ActivityPub, and a whole bunch of different services such as Mastodon and Kbin use this! Together, these services are known as the “Fediverse” and the really cool thing is that they can all talk to each other because they speak the same language! If you want to, you can technically browse and post on Lemmy from Mastodon, and vice versa, even though they’re completely different services. While it’s a bit tricky with Mastodon since its much more like Twitter than Reddit, Kbin works really well with Lemmy and is generally interchangeable. People on Lemmy can join in on Kbin and vice versa. The whole system is really neat and if it sounds interesting, you should absolutely google it some more and learn all about it! It’s a community project so if you like it and want to get involved, you can help create any part of this from contributing to Lemmy’s code to running your own instance.
Thanks for the explanation and the time taken to write it.
I’m starting to figure it out as I stumble my way around it. For example I’ve found that Lemmy.World (my ‘home’ instance) isn’t big on NSFW stuff, so I’ve made an account on another instance and linked the two.
Thanks again!
There’s so much more to it than that, but I’m too new and generally technically inept to properly explain it
It has already started :) I’d say around 60% of major instances block exploding-heads, burggit and/or lemmygrad. Lemmygrad and EH in turn defederate a shitton of instances as well due to ideological reasons. Most “civility” or “law” related instances block piracy instances. The dbzer0 piracy instance blocks anything seen as too right-wingy cuz the owner is an anarchocommunist or something. LGBT instances are blocking & promoting for other instances to block instances that aren’t too friendly to LGBT or are simply not moderating or even promoting homophobia & related topics. I actually made a tool called federation-checker.vercel.app/ that checks where an instance stands in the federation “war”, so I know what instances to register onto if I wanna see some content that has been blocked by the instances I’m on.
federation-checker.vercel.app
That is pretty cool, but uhh maybe not user friendly. I entered “lemm.ee” and it says “Not a lemmy instance”.
It would be cool if it could pre-enter the HTTP referrer, then typing might not even be needed.
lemm.ee crew represent ✊
I know that the url part is fucked. I did it fast and I knew what would happen as I coded it. I 100% know it sucks ass lol. It is what it is until I get help or time to fix it.
It’s a buggy thing lol. I made it very fast. I am very busy nowadays. I can’t bother to edit it much. I would appreciate PRs. My github is lemmygod. If you have any knowhow, any help is extremely welcome in these days of dayjob exhaustion. :)
Tldr:
Bigots are getting shunned, and cops are ignoring crime
Way to completely misread I guess. Bigots are defederating, cops are defederating, pedestrians are defederating, ants are defederating. Everyone and their mom is shunning and getting shunned except like a tiny couple kinda major instances and some of the smaller one that just don’t care and don’t cause any waves. Some of it is ideological. Some of it is personal. Some of it is prejudice. Some of it is about URLs or simple disagreements.
Thanks God.
The fact that things get divided up by the community itself is a positive, not a negative. The “major” network of instances don’t have to put up with extreme things on any end of the spectrum while those who do want to take part in that get their own bubble and won’t have to cry about censorship.
It’d be cool if you could make a graph analyzer with this. It’d be a little more complicated, but it may be useful for choosing an instance.
Explain. Like basically order by who has defederated the most and stuff like that? I did wanna add how many users are blocked by each instance and by how many users they are blocked but I forgot and am too busy to even edit the code anymore. Just worked 12 hours today and I’m still so far from completion.
Have each instance be a node on a graph, linked to all other nodes it’s federated with. Basically a way to view federation islands.
Hey, that’s a really cool tool! Thanks for creating and sharing it!
Interesting to hear this from a dirty lemmy.fmhy.ml-er! 😈
This very much feels to me like the beginning of a Civ game, where we’re all fresh nations with different starting conditions that are exploring our territories and building up armies…
The first schism is gonna be fairly dramatic, I’ll bet.
Beehaw is going to pull a Ghandi when their negative aggression value rolls over…
Fun fact: This bug is a myth.
No! I loved that bug! :'(
I am now cursed with this knowledge.
That’s sounds … actually like something I want to witness
which instance will nuke first?
Begun, the instance wars have.
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Too late, it is.
