I still stand with Signal App.
- Telegram has no default E2EE.
- Threema’s encryption was compromised .
- Threema & Telegram both are for profit companies.
- Signal is non-profit & all their source code + finances are public. Even their server codes are publically available
Even their server codes are publicly available
Last I checked, their provided server code lags behind their production server, so you rarely get to see the current version. However, that’s kinda the point of E2EE, is you don’t have to trust the server.
Man, everyone is hopping on the Trash Signal Bandwagon, even though TG is less secure, and nobody (the 99%) uses Threema.
Don’t forget Threem encryption was broken. Threema is not free
It’s called disinformation and psychological warfare. How else attack E2EE, libre software?
I’m wondering if something interesting will fall off the truck this time :D
Context: before that blogpost, cellebrite claimed they can “hack” signal (or they were kinda closer to the truth, and that was media talking abt hacks without reading stuff)
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I can’t believe people are saying Telegram and Threema might be better than Signal. Signal isn’t perfect but Telegram and Threema are worse.
Signal is not applicable when you need a public space for people to just have a discussion, like in discord. Signal clients are clunky and rely on cross sync from what I see, while telegram clients are well made and convenient to use. Even Whatsapp went away from electron so I’d choose it over signal any day.
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Signal clients are clunky
Obviously you have never used Element for matrix. Signal is like a Ferrari in comparison.
Yeah I’ve never used matrix really.
Have you tried Signal recently? On Android it’s very well polished.
In fact I believe it’s a shame that not more people use such a beautiful app, regardless of privacy and security implications.
I have no use for it for now and as long as it’s still electron on desktop I don’t want to have it running.
Matrix would work for that and would avoid proprietary software and sketchy companies
Does it sync automatically between desktop and mobile? Can I share an image into it on mobile and have it a few seconds later on laptop?
It really depends on your use case. Most of my simple chat messages are the same as I would have in any public space. I have no need for encryption, I have need for convenience in that regard. With Telegram I have my chat history on all devices and don’t need to use my phone to connect which are two must-haves for me. For my use case, Signal is the worse option. That doesn’t make Signal bad, just not suitable for me.
As a privacy-concious person I am very much aware of the non-secure nature of my chats, but since that is not a factor of consideration to me when it comes to casual chats with a few friends and family members. The worst thing Telegram could do is analyse my chats and … then what?
Because we keep saying Signal, Telegram, Threema instead of Anti-Libre Software, Service as a Software Substitute and Centralised.
Signal is much worse than Telegram (in terms of privacy)
Please give several reasons why
- The Encryption algorithm of Signal is basically the same algorithms proposed by the US gov in 2000. There is no way they would release these encryption algorithms if they couldn’t break them themsleves
- If you would see which organisations are supporting Signal (look at where Signal gets all the money), you would also agree with me. There is no way these organasations are supporting them for your privacy. Why would they? The same people who are trying their best to get all your data. Believing this is just pure naivity imo but call me what you want
Please stop spreading FUD.
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The encryption used by Signal would not be used if it could be easily broken. It’s fully open source and is regularly audited. People would not recommend it if it were so broken like you say; this is just fearmongering.
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lol, lmao even
I’m not forcing you to believe anything. Also this is a free platform where I can say what I think. I won’t hold myself back from expressing my view only because the majority has a different opinikn (looking at the downvotes). I personally just wouldn’t trust it. And it also doesn’t have any difference to Whatsapp and co. (encryprion algos are the same) which completely removes the purpose of it even existing (ik open source is still an argument. But they don’t have reproducable builds so even that falls apart) so there really isn’t any reason for me to switch to it or promote it to anybody at all.
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- It requires your phone number
Not anymore, right? Or does it still need your number for signing up?
Just to sign up
Signal no longer requires a phone number. You can now create an account. Not sure if that helps your outlook on it, but yeah. It was a fairly recent update that this was rolled out.
Edit: being told we still do need numbers to register. I haven’t gotten a new phone since well before the change was made, so I haven’t actually created an account and gone through the process. It looks like I misinterpreted what was going on when I read the changelog.
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suspicious funding
Which lines of its libre software source code are malicious?
requires your phone number
It’s centralised
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So, which malicious lines of libre software source code have been funded? This is how we stop FUD. Don’t let them derail us.
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It’s not. Our devices run software, not funding.
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Nicely written article and a good read! However I had not heard of Threema before. It looks like a promising messaging app itself, anyone use it?
It’s relatively popular in DACH countries.
I use it sometimes. It has its fair share of issues, and the back end is not open-source, but it is OK for the most part. Main benefit is that you don’t need a mobile number to sign up.
But if you are looking for an alternative IM to use with friends and family, I would rather suggest XMPP, specifically Snikket.
Cool thanks!
I am using it to communicate with 3 people (our common ground as I don’t have an iPhone and don’t use Whatsapp).
A few years ago it felt a bit ruff and awkward to use, but many updates later it is as fluent as any chat app.
The security feels ok. Of course it would be a lot better, if they would open source their code.
both suck when it comes to real hardcore privacy! Signal is surely a bit more private/secure/whatever, unless maybe you count in the US jurisdiction.
if you want hardcore privacy and security, use SimpleX. it’s cutting edge.
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When it’s anti-libre software, why waste our time showing it fails everything else. These pages are trash, too verbose.
Doing thorough analysis and discussing all the nuance and tradeoffs is “trash”? That is a difficult way to live your life, being anti-intellectualist.
That’s a great way to spread a multiplayer app.
I don’t understand your response in the context of refusing to do comparative analysis
- Discord/WhatsApp
- Anti-Libre Software (fails to include AGPL license file: bans us from removing malicious source code) 🚩🚩🚩
- Telegram/Threema
- Libre Software ✅
- Service as a Software Substitute (app needs service and we are missing server software for it: broken app) 🚩🚩
- Signal
- Libre Software ✅
- Self-Hosting (still needs service from us) ☑️
- Centralised 🚩
Needs phone numberCentralised
Suspicious fundingWhich lines of its libre software source code are malicious?- Discord/WhatsApp
how has no one discussed matrix here
I don’t get it at all. There are plenty of platforms like matrix, xmpp, simplex that don’t require phone numbers tied to your identity. Signal has somehow managed to convince people that it’s a private platform, despite it being a US hosted service that requires phone numbers.
Say the US government, in a worst-case scenario in which it constantly monitors all traffic that goes through Signal’s data centers, can ‘only’ see phone numbers, IP addresses and timestamps, right? Or am I forgetting something here?
Metadata and social graphs are more important than message content, esp since not many people have the time to read through individual messages to build meaning.
Signal stores phone numbers (meaning your identity, and home address), and message timestamps: who texted who and when, and who’s in chats with who else. More than enough to build social graphs and connections, and also figure out where people are through their IP addresses.
Do you happen to know what metadata matrix stores? I assume matrix.org specifically stores email and username, right
Yes, but I don’t think user metadata outside of your apub url, name, icon, display name, leaves your homeserver. Email or passwords don’t leave iirc.
Signal can’t see who is texting who. They can’t see which groups you are part of. Those information are end to end encrypted, same as your chats itself, your profile picture, your stories, etc.
Signal doesn’t store message timestamps either.
What Signal itself knows of you is your phone number, the timestamp of your registration, the timestamp of your last connection to the server. That’s it.
Yes metadata is critical but Signal handles metadata very well. Indeed, even though I’m a fan of Matrix, better than Matrix. Matrix is a metadata nightmare due to it’s centralized structure and the way the protocol works.
Signal can’t see who is texting who. They can’t see which groups you are part of. Those information are end to end encrypted, same as your chats itself, your profile picture, your stories, etc.
This is completely false. They can absolutely see who is texting who, in fact they need it to be able to route messages. They have message timestamps, and phone numbers stored in their database.
Question, why do you “trust” signal? You can’t see what code their centralized server is running, unlike matrix which you can self-host and build from source. You don’t have to “trust” matrix, you can verify it for yourself.
It’s a Google hosted service, which is arguably worse because they may as well be a nation-state unto themselves.
And the largest homeserver, matrix.org, is MITM’d by Crimeflare.
Fuck matrix.org, just selfhost.
Doable, but a huge pain in the ass because of conflicts in the protocol. I spent about a year trying to suss them out and come up with a fix but never figured it out.
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I do not think so, no. However, Amazon is certainly big enough to be un-humorously compared to nation-states as well.
Unable to decrypt message
Unable to decrypt message
Unable to decrypt message
Unable to decrypt message
Unable to decrypt message
Unable to decrypt message
…
That must mean it’s working! :D
Signal is currently the best middleground between security, simplicity and widespread adoption.
