I will no longer be able to assist with development nor debugging actual issues with the software… Quite juvenile behavior from the devs. It stemmed from this issue where the devs continuously argued in public by opening and closing an issue. Anyway, thought I would keep y’all apprised of the situation, since these are the people maintaining the software you are currently using.
I think that you should update your post with information that this ban is only for 7 days.
This:
I will no longer be able to assist with development
suggests that ban is infinite, which is not true.
Yeah but if you were in this position would really want to contribute again? It’s virtually an indefinite ban when the reason is this absurd.
Yes, If I would contribute to lemmy, I wouldn’t do it for the devs, but for the software and its users.
EDIT: But don’t think that I support nutomic’s reaction to OP’s comments.
Screw that. The devs are a key component in a software project.
By the way, it’s “its* users”.
Thanks for correction, edited.
Unwilling =/= Unable, this is transparent sophistry
Where do you see that information? I didn’t even know it was possible to do this until last night so not sure how I’m supposed to know how long it lasts.
Sorry, I assumed that github shows it to you somehow. I know about it from nutomic’s comment
thank you, yes I their comment later on. No, github didn’t even tell me I was banned. I happened to notice because I left the tab open and was moving through them trying to find something else.
You kept posting offtopic comments which added nothing to resolving the issue. So I gave you a seven day ban, hopefully it will teach you a lesson.
My first comment directly discusses the issue at hand. It wasn’t off topic. It’s clear you didn’t want any feedback on the issue because it makes you look bad. I explicitly talked about how client side scheduling is a bad idea that does not accomplish the goal of scheduling. And then I gave feedback directly concerning the exact issue I was commenting on of how your conduct was unfitting of lead devs of a major software project, where you squabbled in public in a really weird way, and you refused to even think about discussing the topic (closing the issue over and over again when your coworker had opened it and asked for discussion? Really dude?). Then you finally banned me without any warning or discussion of why.
And no, it’s not going to teach me any lesson, all it did was teach the entire community you have no clue how to run an open source software project. No warning, no explanation, just juvenile marking of comments as off topic (they weren’t), closing of the issue your main dev opened and then boom banned.
My comment about scheduling in clients was from January and that option was already discarded by dessalines on the next day. No use in rehashing the same thing ten months later. All you are doing is creating pointless notifications for everyone. I know its not ideal to close and reopen an issue, but really why is it a big deal? We closed hundreds of issues recently which were outdated, invalid or already fixed. I accidentally closed one that still needs to be implemented and dessalines reopened it, so everything is fine. Certainly not a “squabble”, and your comments added nothing at all.
Its true that I shouldnt have given a warning first, but most likely you would have responded with another offtopic complaint so I didnt see any use in that. If you want to complain then do it somewhere else, not on the issue tracker which is meant for getting work done.
You marked all his comments in the federation bug issue off-topic, but none of them seem off topic and give you details which you quote and respond and even ask follow up questions for. How is it anything other than being petty to mark those comments off-topic?
Youre right, my mistake. Ive manually unhidden all his comments, except those in #234.
Thank you
Instead of engaging like an adult (and admitting that you were incorrect), you decided to behave like a child.
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This isnt the first time Nutomic has reacted in such a egotistical way, especially when someone points out a flaw in the software. I’ve seen a few issues that were actual issues with the software–not feature requests–that he’s closed and dismissed. One of the issues were mine. He definitely needs help with maintaining the software but I dont know how he expects anyone to help with the way he’s been acting.
Lemmy is spaghetti code anyway. These guys wouldn’t know design if the golden ratio bonked them over the head in the form of a nautilus shell.
And yet, I don’t know of a better project. Growing, maintained projects will usually get better over time (take major refactors, when being modular, rewritten parts of it etc.). But yeah growing needs to have a healthy and friendly Community Code of Conduct, and that I am more concerned of…
Really?
Mastodon. Firefish. KBin. Pleroma. Pixelfed.
Like, every other instance type on Activitypub. Lemmy doesn’t work better than any of them, it’s just more geared toward community discussion (KBin aside). What Lemmy prospers from isn’t just the project itself, but the communities that happen to have attached themselves to it.
Mastodon - not a link aggregator, tree-threaded, kbin hmm PHP (yuk) and mostly one contributor and by far not as feature rich as lemmy. The rest similarly as Mastodon is not close to reddit as lemmy is.
And yes ActivityPub grows with multiple projects, but I mean specifically something like lemmy or kbin and something that can be a reddit replacement of sorts. There’s a little bit more happening than just ActivityPub behind the scenes btw. And it’s still no small feat to have a platform like Mastodon or lemmy (I think those two are the mostly the forerunners by now). Sure it’s not super complex, but the amount of features are often underestimated by a lot of people (as far as I can read here and often somewhere else, so why is there no real alternative to lemmy yet…?)
Yeah, I mean, that’s fair. I do obviously prefer the discussion format or I’d be off fiddling around with Firefish. But also, like, on another level, the redditesque format seems to bring this inherent negativity, toxicity and one-upping garbage. Though that has gotten a lot worse since the reddit exodus, I think part of that is just people getting back into that familiar comfort zone.
It would be nice to see something that isn’t quite as user-focused as Mastodon or Firefish but isn’t quite designed to be a Reddit clone in a way that might bring something new to the table.
Sure I’m totally in for something new, maybe even more in a wiki based style (i.e. collecting knowledge) or a mix of all kinds of things (like StackExchange etc.). But I don’t think that the concerns you have, have much to do with the platform and more with the users using the platform. The communities I’m mostly on, are civil and objective/less emotionally driven. This topic is (as the title already implies) a little bit the exception…
For a Reddit clone one could just use the earlier open source official reddit code release.
Though I’d choose Hubzilla because of Zot. But that’s just me.
Nah the old official reddit code is entirely out of date, writing up something like the original official reddit clone, is not too hard, and I would rather rewrite it (in Rust obviously ^^).
Hubzilla is certainly an interesting and ambitious project (though a PHP codebase repels me a little bit, TBH). Need to check it out further. Zot also sounds interesting. Looks a little bit like a swiss-army-knife sandbox-toolkit of federated social networks.
You want to teach a lesson? The only lesson you’re teaching here is that you’re a twat. You get some hardheaded opinion on someone’s suggestion, refuse to listen to anything else, and ban them for explaining themselves. Grow up.
chill out, gamer
Yeah this guy is acting as if he’s a programming god who created something nobody could. This instance is called programming.dev, filled with programmers who know a little something about this programming thing. I’m a 15yoe self taught data engineer, and if I understand one thing, it is that anybody can learn programming and become great at it. I’m always proud of my code, but I never think my code is perfect. Programming and technology as a whole is constantly evolving, and what was clever/genius/wizardry yesterday is obsolete tomorrow. The only asset to a programmer is to be able to always learn new stuff, because there is always new stuff and better ways to do what you did in the past. I don’t even give detailed directions to my interns because I want to see if they do things in a different way that is better than the way I usually do things.
15yo
bedtime for you, kid
15yoe-> 15 years of experience
nah im sticking with it. Programming.dev lemmys are like Shitjustworks lemmys if ya let them talk for too long
FR this behavior is why people left Reddit.
The comments read like you banned the dev for making a telling point in favor of reopening the ticket.
The lesson I take away is that your ego is more important to you than improving Lemmy.
The issue was already open. I gave a temporary ban for posting pointless complaints which added nothing to resolving the issue.
Talk it out. Slamming a ban on a contributor it’s just immature and damaging
Really? Is it necessary to ban people about making a valid argument. I know and also don’t like people asking a low effort “What’s the status of this” (and would totally get why such a thing would be marked off-topic, but a ban over something like this is still to harsh IMHO, they will learn, that such questions are not well-received over just the marking it as off-topic).
But the comment discussed here has a valid concern (quickly closing issues that don’t have satisfactory solution yet, without getting feedback).
A better reaction would be to just ask, whether the issue at hand is still relevant, having [these] alternatives at hand etc.
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You demonstrated that you are unaccountable. It’s a lesson for anyone considering investing in this project, indeed.
Can you point us to these comments so we avoid the same fate? Or perhaps contribution guidelines so we understand what to do or not do? I’ve never seen anyone banned for good faith contributions in OSS before.
I tracked down the PR in the screenshot and it seems pretty innocuous.
They’d point you at the code of conduct link found in the very GitHub repo this incident concerns, but then you would realize how many of their own rules they’ve violated.
I admit I didn’t look before asking to see if they had one. Just took a look and good god. How can Lemmy devs be so crunchy and inclusive with how they want the community to operate and yet be so abrasive on GitHub? Wild shit.
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Reopening the same issue multiple times after it getting closed is a dick move. The contributer was pretty clear about the reasoning why. You are just wasting people’s time with feature requests like that.
you’re misreading the situation. Dessalines (one of the creators of lemmy) opened an issue asking for feedback on a feature. Nutomic (the second creator of lemmy) immediately closed the issue, with no feedback and no discussion. Dessalines opened it again (for good reason, there was no discussion on the topic) and then nutomic closed it again. This continued several times. I then commented about why the feature was useful, and also gave feedback as to why the issue shouldn’t be closed. This was then marked off topic so that my comment wouldn’t be seen (since it made nutomic look bad). I commented again and was immediately banned, no warning, explanation, or discussion, continuing the trend of one of the main lemmy devs not knowing how to work on a major OSS project.
The OP was not the one reopening issues, just commenting at the end. The comments are marked off-topic and collapsed. Username is snowe2010, matching OP’s Lemmy username of snowe.
It was a feature request by a maintainer from 2019, closed by another maintainer in 2023, reopen by the original maintainer shortly after, then closed again a few months later by a maintainer and reopened by the original again
Context:
hopefully it will teach you a lesson.
Egos are terribly ugly. Please put yours away.
I agree. That’s why Rosanne has no ego. You go girl!
None of these really seem that off topic lol. Especially not the one marked off topic in the pictured post.
Are you 12?
It’s a psyop to make .ml look bad
It’s really effective then, lol.
You forgot old man at the end of the sentance!
I don’t have time to look into this, but my gut reaction is that everyone involved in drama like this is a knob.
Quite the ego you have there, I bet you’re fun at parties.
Projects fail when developers alienate their contributors. Grow up and act like an adult.
hopefully it will teach you a lesson.
LOL, come on.
common nutomic WI’m assuming you’re referring to comments they made in other Issues, not the one linked and not the one in the screenshot?
Oh wow so manly and alpha. Way to show who is boss! My pants are off stud get over here!
Aggression and dishonesty aren’t going to help. You’d be better off dropping the defensive arguing and realizing that you overreacted. It’s okay to have screwed something up and admit it. You’d be getting a much better reaction if your response was along the lines of ‘Whoops, yep. Guess I’m a bit of a hot-head sometimes, I’ll try to look out for that.’
But when someone literally can’t ever admit that they could possibly be wrong, that they could possibly have overreacted in any way, how is anyone supposed to work with that?
Everyone is wrong sometimes. Being intractable about it doesn’t get you anywhere.
Lol. Pathetic
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Please refrain from using the word “retard” as a slur on our instance in accordance to our user rules.
Lmao fuck off
Someone just linked me this, seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding. Pm me either through here or on matrix and we can try to get it resolved.
From Nutomic in this very post:
You kept posting offtopic comments which added nothing to resolving the issue. So I gave you a seven day ban, hopefully it will teach you a lesson.
Where’s the misunderstanding? Seems like this was intended based on their reaction.
lol
god bless the lemmy devs
“misunderstanding”
“It will teach you a lesson”
Wow. Way to treat volunteers.
Idk I think y’all are a bit too dramatic lol. Imho you’re reading too much into a small aggression. This has nothing to do with the future of Lemmy or anything as grandiose as that
This has nothing to do with the future of Lemmy or anything as grandiose as that
I didn’t say it did. I mentioned that it would affect me, the person who runs the server you’re commenting on. That’s it.
I was referring to other commenters, mb should’ve been clearer about it
It is certainly becoming a pattern. Similar upsets around both moderation and database optimization.
Hey bud when was the last time you went outside for a walk in nature and talked to someone in IRL? Because you seem to have created the most useless drama for yourself.
In in real life lol?
Lemme just type my PIN number into this ATM machine…
Smh my head
Did I stutter?
nothing to do with the future of Lemmy
Let’s not go that far. That said, it’s certainly not everything to do with it either. Let’s call it an indicator and keep an eye on it.
Informative, and unfortunate.
100% agree with your take on the original issue - it should be a discussion between the devs, not edging along the lines of an argument. However, I do feel like the discussion would have been better suited to the dev Matrix chat or something
Even if they were upsetted by your comments, banning you was not the right way to handle that IMO.
Just do it like other projects - tag it as enhancement, postpone it forever, be done with it. And in case it’s a useful enhancement, you can see the votes accumulating on the issue and maybe really reconsider implementing it?
Informative, and unfortunate.
Do you watch Louis Rossmann? I’ve heard him say that phrase many times in his videos.
Yepp I do, that’s where I got it from lol
Quite juvenile behavior from the devs.
The constant closing and reopening the issue was a bit weird but I didn’t really see any hostility or toxic behavior, except from you getting pissy about it out of nowhere.
This is ridiculously petty from the devs, and does make me seriously wonder about Lemmy’s future.
Idk if they care about a particular thing FOOS devs are often petty. I don’t think it’s actually a threat to the project. Like read unix mailing lists from Linus or whoever else, it can get downright toxic. e.g.:
"BULLSHIT. Have you looked at the patches you are talking about? You should have - several of them bear your name. […] As it is, the patches are COMPLETE AND UTTER GARBAGE. […] WHAT THE F*CK IS GOING ON? " here
I think Linus gets away with a lot because the value Linux delivers is pretty out of this world.
Being rude to people trying to contribute in good faith seems like a way to send them to a competitor and if one exists, that doesn’t bode well for the project.
Opening an issue that is a feature request is hardly a contribution, especially if there are few full time devs it might be a distraction more than a contribution, and there is like 1 open source competitor.
Ideas are free, finished working code is expensive, if the devs think they can’t get to it in the next N years they probably just don’t want to see it.
As I said I don’t buy how this would be an actual problem, maybe it’s rude but who cares, the admin is essentially an end user demanding something, at the end of the day he can write it himself or stfu. The devs time will certainly be spent better almost anywhere else than arguing on a GitHub issue.
If ideas are free, why do Fortune 500 companies routinely bribe their customers to tell them about the experience so far?
Because feedback from people using your software is valid and valuable. Feedback from power users of your software (admins of instances) is even more valuable.
I understand why you feel the way you feel, but this isn’t how a healthy project is run.
You say the devs time would be better spent developing and I agree. Interesting that they took time out of their day to issue a ban and then come here to weakly defend it. It’s almost like they could have just ignored the OP and none of this would have happened.
In the first part I disagree, fortune 500 aren’t looking for ideas they are gathering data, the difference here is one of quantity. And they will at least usually not gather free form things unless they have significant resources to commit to sorting through it. Or it’s specifically payed support.
Feedback is valuable only if actionable, if the feedback can’t be acted on because one dev largely already said yes and the other one largely thinks there is more important stuff right now it’s not actionable. That’s why companies have teams specifically for market research or marketing or whatever, they don’t usually let the devs gather it themselves. And in the case of big open source projects with full time staff handling the issues on the GitHub might be partially done by a not dev team. Or a dev team member that’s not a dev themselves.
Yes the dev can choose to spend time bickering about this here, I don’t really care and I never said he should develop instead, I might think it’s stupid but again who cares. Ignoring would perhaps have been better but blocking for 7 days is almost like ignoring, just that the trigger is blocked for 7 days as well, completely reasonable to do if it was actually annoying, and it might’ve been considering it was two largely unnecessary comments.
I even agree with you that the devs seem sorta toxic and maybe their project management style is unhealthy, but they are devs, as long as they continue to develop a reasonable software who cares how it’s run. They are not pr or even project managers, they are devs, maybe they chose their job by what they can do and just ended up having to do the community management on GitHub as well because their software is open source.
If they actually had active control over the future of the software in the general sense, i.e. if it was closed source i would be concerned with the characters running the project. But it’s open source, the future doesn’t depend on specific devs, it’s explicitly set up so that the current devs could die or delete it or whatever, and in response anyone willing could create a fork with a scheduler and anything else they might want, it even works with a federated approach so any fork would be backwards compatible.
Did you look at the subject at hand? It wasn’t a feature request, it was an a bug issue that had been opened by the programming.dev admins back when there were issues with the instance not federating. It seems to me like OP was providing context(after the issue was mysteriously resolved) and the Lemmy dev lost his cool.
The one linked by snowe above and is the cause of this is on a feature request but its not a feature request made by snowe, its one made by dessalines.
All of snowes comments got collapsed due to getting marked as off topic which seems to be making people think hes dessalines when thats another lemmy dev
Snowe in the thread explaining it
The bug report is a different thing from this (although now snowe cant comment on that thread due to being banned and everything there and in some other spots such as a pull request I was making are also marked as off topic). Probably will get resolved by dessalines based on dessalines comment but weve got Pangora being built up as well
Just an all round juvenile behaviour from the devs. Would expect a project like this to be more properly managed.
Everyone is human, everyone makes mistakes. Sometimes people are also in a very bad mood and act weirdly because of that. Let’s not make a big drama out of it.
Sure. You’re not the one with the seven day ban.
Oh no a whole 7 days? How will they ever survive /s
Dude, who in their right mind would add scheduling infra to a client like that? 😆 I’m going to need these Lemmy devs to have a tad bit more experience before they start being so dismissive, especially to someone who’s just trying to help.
Hi there more experienced person, would you mind explaining the intricacies of the madness for a lowly n00b?
Is it just 'cause it’d need the client to be constantly running to output the scheduling? So like, you set it to schedule a post and then you have to actually open it as an app before it would actually work if it wasn’t running in the background when the time ticked over? Is there more to it? Any and all details you’d be willing to explain would be appreciated.
Regardless, I hope you have a lovely day and best of luck with everything you’re doing!
A “client” in this context can mean anything, including another separate service.
This makes no sense to have in a desktop/mobile app, but it certainly should not go to the server as well.
Lemmy needs a fork, if only to kick the devs into gear with regards to actually working with/listening to the community. At this point a significant number of users have been lost because the devs have been largely unable to capitalize on previous waves on growth due to slow development. It’s one thing if it’s just a couple of devs working on the project and trying their best, it’s an entirely different thing when a couple of devs are shutting out large numbers of contributors (frequently subject matter experts which they desperately need at this point) over relatively trivial issues. This isn’t the first time this has happened and it won’t be the last. Mbin is reviving Kbin as a project and we need something similar for Lemmy.
Forks would murder the community is they weren’t compatible
They don’t have to be incompatible.
Yup.
In fact, you don’t need to be based on Lemmy’s codebase in order to be compatible with Lemmy. See: Kbin/Mbin, https://azorius.net, https://narwhal.city (which seems to be lotide’s flagship?), or heck, Mastodon (although the interoperability UX there isn’t the best)
Building on Lemmy would make things significantly easier, especially regarding the quirks of Lemmy’s implementation of ActivityPub & FEP-1b12 though, so a fork would be the path of least resistance.
The fedi has a long history of forks for a variety of reasons. Hell, Misskey alone has like a bajillion forks to the point where it’s a meme how many of them there are, and yet they’re all compatible.
In fact, you don’t need to be based on Lemmy’s codebase in order to be compatible with Lemmy. See: Kbin/Mbin, https://azorius.net, https://narwhal.city (which seems to be lotide’s flagship?), or heck, Mastodon (although the interoperability UX there isn’t the best)
Of all the misplaced priorities by the dev team I really think this is one of the biggest. If they just fixed authorized fetch Lemmy would almost certainly be the goto host for groups among the broader Fediverse.
Lemmy is such junk the community should toss it and start elsewhere.
Let’s not forget, there is a very real sense in which building the communities is harder than building the software. Anything that can be done to preserve existing communities is a win in my book.
Completely agree here.
Yeah, I’d tend to agree. Lemmy’s codebase is pretty atrocious and it looks like the main devs really don’t know Rust well enough, and honestly they don’t seem to be very good at developing a service like this. There’s just no reason to go with Rust for a web service project like Lemmy (despite what Rust cultists will undoubtedly soon come to tell me), it limits the amount of people who can work on it due to not being as commonly used in this particular field, and it’s honestly baffling how they managed to use Rust and make the service as slow as it is – speaks volumes of how shitty the design is, and that they’re doing something fairly stupid with their database.
despite what Rust cultists will undoubtedly soon come to tell me
And here I am :)
There’s a lot of reasons to go with Rust (and least of all performance), especially as web-backend. Top-notch libraries/ecosystem (I work extensively with all kinds of programming languages and most others suck in one way or the other). At this point I dare to say that it has the best ecosystem in this regards. Also a static type-system only being exceeded by Haskell (when talking about general purpose languages, that are actually in use), which makes projects maintainable by a lot of people, especially relevant for an open source project. There’s a reason why a lot of high quality projects are either rewriting or starting in Rust or are thinking to switch to… Etc. don’t want to throw more Rust evangalism at you, since there’s a lot to just google and learn…
Anyway, there were a few changes lately that made federated lemmy better (with the last release especially), the initial bugs I accept. But I agree, they aren’t veterans from the valley with multiple years of experience, just a bunch of idealists that had an idea and were persistent enough for years to implement it, I certainly have respect for that. What I don’t like, is that they are moderating a little bit too much, not being mostly community focused (among others, to avoid forks). But bringing a federated link aggregator like lemmy to the place where it currently is, at least takes quite a bit of time… So a fork (if really necessary) sounds like the most likely way forward…
I seriously doubt Rust has the best ecosystem for web backend development, and I seriously doubt anybody claiming that knows what they’re talking about
Sure you can doubt me as much as you want (and this is probably a healthy attitude). I tend to educate myself, and learn from experience (and that I dare to say, I do have…). As you may have guessed, I really recommend looking into it, there’s so many good design decisions with Rust (and the ecosystem). As a starting point/library: axum would be the web-framework I’d recommend to use (as it uses Rust quite idiomatically). And for e.g. service communication via grpc, tonic is quite nice. As database abstraction layer the last time I have used sqlx which was quite convenient to use. (So far with a “classic” web-stack). And rust-analyzer is probably the best language server I have used (and felt the fast development over the time (with “successful” switch of the maintainer), which speaks for itself as well…).
Btw. it also really depends on what you actually mean with “web backend development”. I.e. “just” writing a web-server that takes connections via HTTP or something deeper the stack…
I mean, “best” is infinitely subjective. I would be inclined to think any anyone who says “php is the best backend software ecosystem for web” doesn’t care much about programming and are really only in the business of making money. Rust is at the creative forefront right now, it makes sense a bunch of pissed off people chose rust to make a reddit clone, it would be challenging to draw passionate engineers to a php or java project; it gives a way to draw more helpful attention (which they are as we now see squandering)
Yeah best is probably not the “best” wording and a little bit provocative, but it’s the “best” ecosystem I have found so far (and I squabbled around with like ~10+ programming languages, often at a deeper level). I’m mostly talking out of a development-experience + quality of software standpoint.
I’m very happy to be proven wrong, or be given a different direction (but C# or JS/TS are definitely not the languages/ecosystem I want to be confronted with, or even maintain systems in it…)
I really don’t think it has anything to do with Rust. Just poorly written firstpass SQL queries. See here: https://github.com/LemmyNet/lemmy/issues/2877
I didn’t mean it’s slow because of Rust
Are you actually /banned/ front participating on GitHub? That seems really petty.
Apparantly it’s for a week
Sorry, which account is yours?
The inflammatory one
What’s inflamatory about it? Genuine question.
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They are the account whose comment is collapsed as off-topic
Hmm, where have I seen that before? Oh yeah, on PCSX2.
Your time and talent is better spent elsewhere. Don’t even think about this any longer.
You wanted to help and they acted in this way. You made yourself clear, so it’s on them to reevaluate.
Your time isn’t free, so don’t spend it on stupid people. I know you’re passionate and want to help, but sometimes it unfortunately comes down to this.
As a frequent user of pcsx2, what’s the drama there?
I tried to submit a patch to disable interlacing and enable full res rendering for Gran Turismo 3.
refractionpcsx2 didn’t like it because the PAL version patch wasn’t fully finished yet. (This was because I literally restarted development in the middle of the PR I made.)
Instead of telling me to resubmit once it’s done, refractionpcsx2 tells me “we don’t want your broken patches”, accuses me of sneaking in stuff and eventually bans me because I gave up on submitting it after growing very frustrated (4 or 5 days of work on the patches).
I made a post in one of the emulation communities here on Lemmy if you want more details.
Fork! Fork! Fork!
