Something I’ve always wondered is what kind of women were in the lives of incel men when they were young. Did they have a bad relationship with their mother? Did they lack sisters or other female family members? Or is their family situation irrelevant? Maybe some particular situation in their early years caused them to develop a complex around women?
I think boys and men have serious issues in our society that are not getting the attention they need. This along with changing social structures leaves some men behind. And they turn to the dark corners of the internet where other men just like them seem to care about them, and seem to have the same problems as them.
Boys and men are falling behind in schools and universities. Many colleges that have affirmative action are now having to use it to boost enrollment for men. Many of these rules were originally meant to increase numbers for women.
Women and girls have issues that society needs to help them with, and often times these issues get a lot more attention and are met with sympathy and understanding.
Whereas sometimes for men’s issues, the base reaction of society is to say stop crying and be a man. Men asking for help in and of itself is generally seen as not a manly thing to do.
This is an oversimplification of the issues, but just making fun of incels without trying to understand where they are coming from is probably not the best strategy to get them the help they need.
This in turn, leads them to start listening to men like Andrew Tate and other asshats.
The important part of the word incel is the “in”—their situation is involuntary. They don’t have the skills or ability to change without help.
Most do- they just think they’re entitled enough not to have to life a finger. It’s entirely voluntary for most of them.
I have a friend who has slid into a lifestyle that is incel adjacent (he’s not quite fully rage filled against women yet), and I find that it is hard to determine what is voluntary and what isn’t. He is fully capable of getting a job or a girlfriend, but his worldview is so warped by depression and anxiety that he simply self sabotages any opportunity to have those things. He suffers greatly and blames himself a lot, but he is also the only thing that is ever standing in his way.
He doesn’t lift a finger to work unless forced, but observing him over the years has led me to believe that it is all a product of severe anxiety. There is no chance of failure if you never try, and it’s easier to act arrogant than it is to constantly reveal how much you actually hate and doubt yourself.
Sadly, there’s not much you can do for someone like that other than continue to be honest and hope it seeps in. Sometimes I feel like Brandon Novak waiting on Bam Margera to be ready for help, but I still have hope that he’ll see the light one day. Under all that negativity, he is still a worthwhile person.
You left a comment above saying that there are no cultural elements that contribute to people becoming incels. You need to have some more empathy for people, as long as they aren’t hurting others
I have zero empathy for people with self-inflicted conditions.
What gets me is that the discourse around incels is forcibly centered on how they effect women, when it should be focussed on the societal problems that turned those men that way in the first place. But it’s not palettable to discuss the issue unless women are given the victimhood role.
It’s much like how every year funds raised for breast cancer research are an order of magnitude more than funds raised for prostate cancer research, even though more men die of it than women do of breast cancer. Both are worthy of funding, but they’re certainly not treated equally.
Would just like to point out the men can also get breast cancer:
Yes, but the rate is only 1% of all breast cancera diagnosed.
Yes, that’s true. 1% is still a significant enough amount (accounting for how large the human is at present) that men benefit from the past breast cancer research as well.
I’m just pointing out that it isn’t a disease that only affects women. I dated a guy back when I was 14 or so, whose uncle got breast cancer. He was all paranoid that he had it, too, because he had lumps in his chest. In his case they turned out to be beniegn
I’d rather that men know there is a (small) risk, than ignore signs because they think that only women can die from it
1% is the typical birthcontrol pill failure rate, and I know of at least 2 babies born into the world while her mother was using bc pills
I’d rather that money is apportioned to finding cures for diseases based on how many people they kill, not by which gender it effects the most.
Agreed
Men not getting the sex they feel entitled to is not a societal problem. It’s a male problem. Noone is entitled to sex and men need to learn that.
You’re confusing cause and effect, but I suspect you already know that due to your gross generalisation.
I don’t understand your point but prostitution is legal in some places.
The mens issue being talked about is involuntary celibacy and that is not feminists problem to solve. Nor should sex workers have to deal with misogynists.
Men’s issues and women’s issues are problems for society to solve together. Feminists can do whatever they do. Doesn’t change anything that society needs to work together to solve.
I would just like to say, that society didn’t just start “caring more about women’s issues over men’s issues” overnight. To get society to give a shit about women at all has been a constant, centuries-long battle fought by various feminists.
It’s not the effect of society “caring more about women” necessarily that you’re seeing, it’s the direct impact of a loooooong battle for recognition. I think that men could benefit from the same thing, because there are a lot of problems that men also face because of the same patriarchy that women face. The be strong, don’t show emotion, being to close to another man is gay type of rhetoric is extremely harmful.
When done in a good-faith way that’s not a disguised attempt to roll-back women’s rights as some men’s rights discussions can sometimes be, I (a feminist woman) am a huge advocate for healing our boys and men. Obviously changing the way we parent boys will help, but it also takes communities of already-grown men themselves to come together to do that work on themselves, as with any self-improvement.
Very interesting. I checked your claim and you’re right https://hechingerreport.org/an-unnoticed-result-of-the-decline-of-men-in-college-its-harder-for-women-to-get-in/
I listened to an interview with a woman who did an in-depth study of the loose coalition of websites and social media personalities of which the incel movement is a part. She described it as “funnel shaped,” which is to say that they don’t start with the darkest, most unhinged language. They start by talking to young men who feel lonely and rejected, and they talk about how they shouldn’t feel bad about being men, how they deserve respect and status, and then it goes on from there down the rabbit hole into the really depraved stuff.
The reason this works is because a lot of young men don’t hear those initial encouraging words in a lot of other places. They hear a lot about toxic masculinity and the harm of the patriarchy, and they feel like their identities are being targeted, and they don’t have a lot of positive healthy male role models to turn to.
We need to have ways of talking to men, especially young men, about how they should feel good about themselves, how they should be proud of the good things they can do in the world, how they should be the best versions of themselves that they can be, and all of that in ways that don’t lead down that dark road to toxicity. It’s an incredibly wide ranging problem, and it’s not going to be easy to fix.
This ⬆️ 💯 great take.
I had incel like behaviour for a while when I was younger I had a pretty normal family and upbringing, but I spent a lot of time online I really resonated with the “nice guys” memes of the late 2000s - I genuinly believed that I was really nice and that no one saw it because they were “sluts” (which they totally weren’t and it’s shocking that I thought that) and that they only liked guys who were sporty I was good in school, I got good grades and I think I leaned into the trope shown in media where the smart guy is always a jerk, so that didn’t help I had nerdy hobbies too and would assume women in those spaces were fake nerds, when really they were more nerdy than me!
I’m so glad I matured out of that headspace, I hate the person I was - but tldr I think the nice guy memes were a big influence, and while they’re not as widespread now, they are on some corners of the Internet
Nothing to do with upbringing.
I was borderline incel. Viewed positive female peers (family, etc.) as completely different from “tainted whores” or whatever.
Bad experiences, chronic isolation are what make an incel. Lonely men without supportive friend groups who turn to the Internet for their social needs. Rejection and dismissal from real world people, acceptance and empathy from the hive mind.
Loneliness does a lot more damage than a shitty upbringing.
I wonder how incels would change if they just had a group of friends they could trust.
Honestly I have doubts it’s related to female exposure; I grew up in a family of men, my mom was the only woman in the entire house and had her own bathroom. She was an oncology nurse and worked crazy hours. I learned more about women dating women than I ever did from hints and lessons from Mom. I’m more inclined to think it’s related to the men in their lives and the examples they set in their interactions with women. The men online who shovel misogyny and bullshit about alpha men are doing more harm to the male sex than anything else I’ve seen.
I mean, my wife has a bunch of sisters. Her little brother is an incel. Both of our families are all kinds of fucked up tho it’s kind of what growing up in a cult does to you
The only person I know who qualifies for ‘incel’ has an amazing mom. I don’t think this one is on females.
Assume nothing. You only know the mom’s public facing image. People can be entirely different in private.
I assume nothing, only what I can judge with my own eyes. She’s not why he’s an incel. But thanks for your concern.
Maybe it’s on the incels themselves, mostly. Not to be rude and not including those with severe mental disorders but life is hard and everyone is mostly the result of your own choices. If we constantly create excuses and look for someone else to blame for this particular group, I think we do them more harm than good.
deleted by creator
How about the appearance, I believe that would be much more relevant.
It’s not really, in my experience. That’s a very common thing for incels to focus on in their forums, but if you actually talk to most women, a good personality can be much more attractive than appearance. Appearance helps, but it’s not the only thing. Focus on dressing well, proper hygiene, and developing kindness (not nice-guy niceness), and you will already be so far ahead of the game you have no idea.
I actually recall talking with some girls. I know it’s anecdotal, but many of them explicitly said that they prefer appearance to personality. Some girls even said height-elevating shoes is what they hate the most. (And they care a lot about height)
How old were they, by chance? Most women I know are old enough to have learned that looks are not everything. I’m sure men learn the same as they mature. Of course, there are assholes everywhere, which is why personality is so important.
If you find someone you like and they have a good personality, hold onto them tight. It’s worth so much more. Lust fades, love you grow together lasts and lasts.
They were 19 years old IIRC.
Hypothesis: what matters here is a social toolbox for engaging with “attractive”/compatible women in a non-romantic/sexual way.
I.e. someone who, even as a teenager, had lots of female friends, is likely to have a learned how to deal with them as persons, beyond “I’d like to hit that”.
(Paradoxically, such a person is more likely to find a romantic partner, because they might have lots of M-F acquaintances/friendships that can potentially become something more.)
Someone who never learned that, can only interact with (to them) attractive women through the lens of “I’d like to hit that”, which has a much higher risk of ending in failure.
If someone in the second category was always raised on the values of romantic success being a requirement for a non-failed life, and possibly with a touch of chauvinism/misogyny, they might wind up caught up in a frustrating loop of failure.
This is how incels can happen.
raised on the values of romantic success being a requirement for a non-failed life
Literally having a conversation down thread with someone who thinks like this. It just mystifies me. I’m single by choice. I’m not asexual, I’m reasonably attractive. But I’ll tell you I learned the very hard way that romantic relationships will not just magically fill that empty hole in your heart. You gotta learn how to do that for yourself even if you’re married.
Since I haven’t seen it mentioned…it might be the same attitude you displayed with the question OP. Immediately wondering which woman’s fault it is that a man is acting badly.
It’s the Freudian question. What every psychology treatment, let it be behavior, psychoanalysis, humanist… comes to: Can you talk about your childhood/parents? It’s not an invalid question, but not a responsible thing for an actual adult to do, make your parents totally responsible for your actions past adulthood.
Lack of personal accountability (“my baby is a perfect angel,” “he’s just a kid”)
Discrimination (racism/sexism/propensity to find scapegoat for issues)
Not teaching conflict resolution at all ages
Popularity of toxic masculine celebrities
Mental disorders not being treated/toxic behaviors not being called out
I’m not an incel, but I do think there are cultural problems among a large percentage women (and men). I’m bi, but woman often don’t like my less planned out take on life, but men don’t mind it so much.
I also think car based infrastructure and the lack of 3rd places is destroying social circles, contributing to inclism.
There are zero cultural issues that create incels. The only ingredient is a toxic world-view.
deleted by creator
It’s always someone else’s fault.
deleted by creator
Oh the irony.
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
It is not linked to the past, it is a rejection trauma.
It is considered normal in our societies to be with someone. And as a man, you are culturally expected to be able to find a woman, and you are responsible for it. If you are a single man, it is because you choose it or because you’re a failed man. The media like to talk about how you now have sex at 11 and how men have many relationships. When you’re still virgin at 18, you already feel like a miserable failure. And the longer it goes, the harder it become. For some men they don’t even need to be virgin, they may have had their first relationship by luck.
Then came #metoo. Many men discovered how hard women had it because of men. And this broke something: before, when you were bad with women, you merely had to man up. There was only one model for men, but it was there. After metoo, this model was broken. Now men are completely helpless.
This second point is reinforced politically by the fact that the left spend a lot of time to talk about women problems, but never talks about how men should be to be successful with women. You have feminist movements spreading hatred against all men, and this is also hard. When communication makes it like all men are assholes and can’t behave with women, but no one tells you how you should do instead, you just feel attacked and helpless.
With that, these men are completely destroyed. Suicide is an option an this point. But hatred is another one. And fascism lives out of hatred. But fascism came later. First there was hatred as an exit of this situation for the desperate men: it’s not their fault, it’s women fault. That’s only the only way you can go out of the misery. And with hatred, you can start to blame them for everything that’s happening. You’re single because the women are stupid and prefer the machist men. And feminism is a fraud.
And oh boy do fascists love this situation! Now they can easily radicalise you because you already did the job. Because the progressive left abandoned these men, the fascists gladly took the opportunity. And you now have a strategy and a market around this.
Not all men fall for this. But the pain and hardship is shared by many men nonetheless. The problem is societal: there is no counter-model to the one old toxic one that’s been discarded by #metoo. You can’t merely make your own model, because the point is to be attractive to women. Which means it actually is a problem for women too. But the progressists unfortunately forgot those men in their fights for the rights of the sexual minorities and the women, so these men are alone.
As a man, you no have 3 solutions : you are lucky enough to be with a woman already ; you embrace the toxic masculinity of the fascists ; or you’re left alone in a no man’s land of solitude and despair. The incels are the men going from the 3rd to the 2nd category.
Society is changing. The process will take time with highs and lows. We’re getting into a low with this problem, and we’ll go to a new high when we will have fixed it. But for now, incels will be the symptom of the failure to include men in feminism.
Feminism does not exclude men.
The media like to talk about how you now have sex at 11
What?
Now men are completely helpless.
WHAT?
How can you think so poorly of men, to believe their only purpose in life is finding a sex partner, and blame feminism for anything? Maybe learn to respect yourself and realize that you have value and things to contribute to this world that don’t have anything to do with romantic relationships.
I hope you realize that this very message of yours is asking men to man up and stop complaining. You are hereby promoting toxic masculinity.
Lmfao, if you’re not capable of seeing the gulf of difference between “hey man, never express any emotion ever” and “hey adult, take some responsibility for your feelings and work on yourself” then I can’t help you.
I don’t need the help of someone who doesn’t want to understand.
And you know what? That’s exactly the problem incels face: the only people trying to help them are like them, so mostly unable to help, and fascists, your enemy and mine.
But keep growing the ranks of your enemies. It’s not like if fascism was at our doorsteps…
Excuse me? I have to save “incels” or the fascists will win? What is this nonsense?
Incel is not a word I would ever use to describe even one individual, let alone an entire group. You know why? Because I have more respect for people than that. Maybe you should too.
You literally said “men are helpless” and yes, you are correct that I am unable to help anyone who claims that they are helpless.
When you respect people, you try to understand them. You are not doing that here. You are merely bitching, offended that I, a man, dared to criticise feminism.
“merely bitching”
Nice buzzwords in response to them calling out total gibberish, I’m convinced!
Maybe some people want romantic relationships.
Women fought to have the lives of men: a public, non romantic life, and that’s an excellent thing.
Many men today want romantic relationships. How is this a bad thing? What kind of monster are you to say that a man should suck it up and forget any idea of intimacy or romantic relationship with a woman?
This is exactly the reason why these people turn incels or machists. And you’re not worth more than them.
I don’t blame feminism. I don’t blame the left. I point at their shortcomings. You can’t build a world of equality of you don’t include men.
The future is together.
Please point to exactly where I said that. It’s fine to want a romantic relationship. But if anyone - man or woman or anything in between - defines their entire self-worth on that one single thing, then they’re going to have a very bad time in life. Relationships end. People die. If the only thing you can see yourself as is the partner to another person and you lose (or can’t get) that other person, then you’re lost.
Work on being whole yourself and defining your value to and for your own self. Work, art, skilled hobbies, charity, friends, family. All of these things can provide value to your community. Find self worth outside of romantic relationships is the best advice for anyone in the world, even people who are currently in romantic relationships.
What you call lost is the very definition of human.
Looking for a relationship is not lost it is the most human thing to do.
What is more human than finding another human to procreate with?
Everything else you mention all valuable is secondary to social. The cruelest thing you can do to a human is to put them in solitary confinement.
Bro, you are going to have a difficult life, if you think of existing in your community as solitary confinement. I’d advise you to go get involved in something. Go find a maker space to volunteer at, volunteer at the library, talk to your neighbors, join some kind of outdoor activity group.
You can do all of this while ALSO trying to date. You can (and should) do this kind of stuff even after you get married. You can’t just sit around feeling bitter and expect a relationship to solve that for you. That right there is a perfect recipe for a relationship that will fail. You have to be your own person even when you’re in a relationship.
There’s more to “being social” than just finding a person to have sex with you and calling it a day.
“existing in your community as solitary confinement.” – Chetzemoka
What a strange take. Isn’t this a contradiction? Anyways I just want to point out that this is… A wrong take. Very strange and very wrong take.
Just know that being social is being human. You seem to forget that at times.
Read some feminist theory then.
Or maybe try to understand the people around you instead of diabolizing them.
You have feminist movements spreading hatred against all men, and this is also hard.
Lies, this is propaganda by the reactionary anti-feminism movements
no one tells you how you should do instead, you just feel attacked and helpless.
Again, made up. It’s simply that any solution presented didn’t offer the same power dynamic the previous one did, because women are more empowered.
As a man, you no have 3 solutions.
Lmao what??? Where’s the “be a decent, respectful person while also being authentic,” the one that has been doled out for decades at this point?
incels will be the symptom of the failure to include men in feminism.
I see you have no idea what you’re talking about, because you’re not at all educated on feminism. Men are not in the title of feminism, and they’re angry they’re not.
deleted by creator
It’s funny how your last sentence directly contradict your first one, don’t you think?
I’m all for being decent, authentic and blablabla. But that’s not the matter. Which shows how oblivious you are to the problem.
The problem is about dating and romantic interactions. Being decent, romantic and authentic is a worthless advice.
#metoo made made men helpless? Dont rape confused you? Really?
Are you stupid or did you simply not read? Otherwise if you didn’t understand something you can just ask instead of being an asshole.
Seems like these incels have no personal responsibility, it is society’s fault.
Yeah, kinda.
If you need help or support of some sort, and you’re black, there are tons of black or African American support groups available. If you’re a women, again, there are tons of support groups. Black and a woman? Congrats, you can double dip.
Now, what’s the first pro-white-male group you can think of.
That’s why I think it’s not just an individual problem, but a societal one.
Now, what’s the first pro-white-male group you can think of.
Ku Klux Klan
…but why would anyone want to associate with garbage white supremacists?
If you need help or support of some sort, and you’re black, there are tons of black or African American support groups available. If you’re a women, again, there are tons of support groups. Black and a woman? Congrats, you can double dip.
In the USA at least, those other groups (black support groups, women’s support groups) exist because of the long history of bad things that white males have done to every other race and gender. Those groups work to counteract at least a small part of the hundreds of years of white male oppression on these groups.
Being a white male in the USA is still one the most privileged groups. Don’t think so? Ask a woman about very basic things they have to do be safe, such as having a friend with them to walk at night or worrying about a man drugging their drink at a bar/party. Ask a person of color about the risks of being fully licensed to drive a car but being in the wrong type of city, or the risks of them owning a legal firearm and having an encounter with Police officers.
The only thing being more privileged than “white male” in the USA is “rich white male”.
Being a white male in the USA is still one the most privileged groups.
Agreed.
But that doesn’t mean that white men are exempt from needing help.
With issues facing all human beings, sure! However, what help are you arguing white males need because they are white males?
I assume you mean what is a pro male group that doesn’t have negative societal impacts. There are plenty of pro white male groups: NFL, NHL, their fan clubs, pro soccer(euro football) fan groups, NRA, Elks, Shriners, Freemasons.
What is really missing is a pro male, not at the cost of being neg-female group. It also doesn’t have to be a white men group, realizing that all men need to have a place to be men together but also not be stereotypical men but emotionally transparent, honest with eachother men.
Admittedly I haven’t read this whole article but this kinda group sounds reasonable: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/18/the-good-men-inside-the-all-male-group-taking-on-modern-masculinity
Exactly this. I’m someone who definitely could have fallen into the incel pipeline and you hit the nail on the head. To be clear, I’m 28 years old and have never gotten past a first date (and have only had one of those). I’ve only ever experienced rejection. I’ve never experienced any kind of physical or emotional intimacy from someone I was attracted to. Basically every aspect of human culture and society make me feel like a failure for this. Of course, while I am “involuntarily celibate”, I’m not an incel. I have the good sense to realise that it’s my own fault and to hate myself rather than to place the blame with women. I have a recently diagnosed case of Autism Spectrum Disorder which has hardly impacted other aspects of my life. I have friends, a career, pastimes, I live on my own. Literally the only place where I feel “disabled” is in trying to form meaningful connections with women.
I feel for you. I’m in the same boat. I hope it’ll get better for you.
If you look up studies on “incels” you’ll find most report that incels have an incredibly high rate of mental health disorders, mostly untreated and sometimes undiagnosed. Issues like depression, anxiety, and autism are very common. These mental health issues affect their ability to form social connections which can eventually lead to inceldom where they surround themselves with other incels and feed off each other. I read one study that called this “tendency for interpersonal victimhood (TIV)”.
Upbringing could certainly have an effect on people’s mental health, but not everyone with mental health issues is an incel. Becoming an incel is an extra step only some take and I don’t think anyone truly knows how it happens.
Just a minor but important point: being neurodivergent is not a “mental health disorder.”
I do agree it plays a role in boys becoming incels, but it’s not in the same category as depression or anxiety disorders.
Edit for the replies I got: I strongly believe our society needs to stop looking at neurodivergent people as somehow “wrong” or “messed up.” Your brain is your brain just like your skin color is your skin color, and no should be discriminated against for either. In this case, it really is society that needs change, not the individual. It’s uncomfortable or even traumatic for the individual because of how other people react to them, not because of who they fundamentally are. Having to Face all the time, being forced into far too stimulating situations, having very few people understand your needs while at the same time foisting their expectations on you is exhausting. And it shouldn’t have to be this way.
deleted by creator
As someone neurodivergent I would say it either is a disorder, otherwise everyone normal has the disorder. It has also caused me a great deal of anxiety and depression from being different and whatever else. None of it led to incel tendencies in my case and I just felt like nobody liked me because I was different from them. I couldn’t get along with other divergent kids either. Sometime into my several years of incessant migraines and hating everything and wanting to die, I became able to talk and react to people in a way that generally didn’t make them react differently to me as they did to others. I think the migraines made me worse though.
“tendency for interpersonal victimhood (TIV)
I found that paper. Its in interesting read, but it only seemed tangentially related to incel behavior. It seemed much more focused on something like…the arguments that “white supremacists” use.
I found the paper again. It’s this one
Compared to non-incels, incels were found to have a greater tendency for interpersonal victimhood, higher levels of depression, anxiety and loneliness, and lower levels of life satisfaction. As predicted, incels also scored higher on levels of sociosexual desire, but this did not appear to moderate the relationship between incel status and mental well-being. Tendency for interpersonal victimhood only moderated the relationship between incel self-identification and loneliness, yet not in the predicted manner. These novel findings are some of the earliest data based on primary responses from self-identified incels and suggest that incels represent a newly identified “at-risk” group to target for mental health interventions, possibly informed by evolutionary psychology.
A digital upbringing it seems. Self taught, doomscrolling with no one around who loves them enough to tell them they are slipping away into darkness.
Then oversimplification by people stereotypes and lack of socialization to realize the complexity of humans and human interactions. It’s so easy to consider that “all women are A” or that “some of the people are A and some are B” when, in fact, you have all sorts of people with different spectrums of beliefs and understandings that you can’t just box into a category. Then, when getting together with people with the same stereotyping and labeling standards, they get to slip away together and reinforce their beliefs
I want to add to this that it’s also a self circulating thing too. It’s easy to start reading text that’s antiwomen, seeing videos about it, slowly further looking into more and more negative things. Some guys literally brain wash themself on this. That’s why some media worry me.
For example I recently watched a video that discussed the negatives of Captain Marvel as a movie. Not long after my videos started showing negatives of other shows and movies like velma, shehulk and snow white etc.
Then not long after that all my videos started showing anti women, and more just outright incel videos.
YouTube recommendations/ads are weird. I started watching the Atheist Experience again and the very first time I put an episode on all my ads became for Christian products or services.
Makes me wonder whether those with the top dollar gets to influence what we see, and slowly how we think. A couple vids here a few ads there that slowly appeal to things it already knows you like. Until it creates a new norm.
Content consumption. A guy is lonely and goes to Google and types “how to talk to girl” or a variation of that, which is fine and normal mind you, and instead of the top search results being positive and genuinely helpful it’s the beginning of a rabbit hole that directly leads to this kind of woman hating BS. Couple that with terrible male role models in that guy’s life and there you have it.
Isn’t it going to be more likely the men who taught him to hate women than women? That’s kinda incel thinking that the women caused it / deserve it, somehow. Incel is a cult, it’s fed by a lot of stuff online. It’s my take that extremely unbalanced overblown ego + not getting what they want = hate the things that don’t just give them what hey want, rather than be capable of self reflection. And the whole upbringing of men is socially oppressed by toxic masculinity to “be the best” (= toxic ego / never question the self), because if they are “the best” it’s others that are wrong, it can’t be them, and they can’t handle the cognitive dissonance of having any faults (aka being human) which would equate them to being not “the best”. So by their maths, the equation is “actually it’s everyone else that’s the problem and if I have to twist logic, reason and reality while crating crazy conspiracy theories, rather than self reflect, I will”
It’s a lack of positive male role models in a person’s life. If they see people calling women hateful evil sluts, they may assume any negative interaction with a woman is because she’s a hateful evil slut, and they may not look inward. Don’t have to look inward, in fact, because the answer is obvious - just a useless slut just like whatever podcaster has told them.
Yes, let’s blame the women again.
The better question would include the father of the incel or what kind of parents does the incel have?
Why not just take responsibility for who and what you are and I don’t know, just live your life? Get help and get over it. Women don’t owe you anything.
I’m more interested in how the incel would treat a woman if he ever found one.
Oh goody gumdrops I’m about to become very unpopular again. Maybe this time someone will help me change my POV if I am wrong instead of just getting angry and resorting to name calling.
Here goes: feminism left young men behind and as much as one might want to say “don’t blame women” the feminist movement has given power to women over the years and that power comes with responsibilities. One of those responsibilities is to collaboratively carve out a space for men as we strive for an egalitarian society.
You know that if you say what what I just said you’re blaming women again, while if you ask how men can take part in feminism you’re making women’s struggles all about men, again.
Can’t win.
How can we have an equitable society if one side is never to blame for anything and the other is ‘whining or attention’ when they ask to be included in the changes?
The simple fact is that feminism has been an incredible source for good but it has focused solely on women. That has been a mistake because as one side changes, the other too just reshape itself.
I’m middle aged and I know so many men who my age and even some younger who thrash about daily trying to make sense of society with no role models and no standards to aspire to. No wonder some become angry.
Imagine being the youngest in generations of men who have been raised according to macho ideals. Be the breadwinner, protect women and children. Hunt. Gather. Kill or be killed… and now act with kindness and empathy to a changing world. I’m not defending or apologising for incels but it is time for young boys and young men to be considered and included in feminism. I’m a dad to two girls and a feminist, and I don’t want my daughters partners to be a couple of ornery jackasses.
There. I said it.
BTW: this is one of the ideas being addressed on the brilliant Barbie movie. “Maybe every night didn’t have to be a girls night.”
You misunderstood the Barbie movie… And everything else. Your entire post proves that when you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.
You are an idiot and you understand nothing of the problem. This is not about privileges, this is about how you reinvent relationships between men and women when the old model is obviously as toxic as it is obsolete.
Right now there is a bad model and no alternative. That is the problem. Feel free to ignore it and hate the privileged men though, but that will not solve anything.
Have an upvote, but I don’t really agree with you. Here in the Netherlands about the time my two boys entered elementary school the government took a look at the stats and realized that boys over the last decade had poorer outcomes post secondary education than girls. So, they (to decidedly mixed success) added some more and more frequent physical activity including something that translates to rock and water, which is kinda hard to explain, but is a way to use physical exercise to teach boundaries. You can see similar stats regarding differences in outcomes for men and women in university graduation rates in America and the UK.
The point I’m trying to make is that something in our systems changed, and to some it appears to be a kind of zero sum game (which I do not believe it is or has to be). I mean sure there is a chance that producing better outcomes for girls, which is great, has had some negative effect on boys; the problem is we cannot tell if the two are related, outside of some inherent gross physical differences in size, strength etc. Thus, the incels immediately jumped to the conclusion that its “teh Femmminizzzz.”
And I do agree with the OP of this sub-thread that it is a very difficult process to realize your privilege, to see beyond it and then through someone else’s eyes. Unless you are lucky and either hit just the right place to start researching or have friends who can help, if you didn’t internalize your privilege at an early age, it’s a long ass road. Took me a good decade, and most weeks I come across something I still hadn’t learned.
I’ve brought both my boys up to understand exactly how privileged they are to have been born white, with a dick, straight, and in a wealthy W European country. I see many fathers and mothers here in NL have done the same. The kids these days really are all right. So I have real hope the Zoomers by and large and the incel subculture notwithstanding will simply never internalize the hateful points of view we Xers had to brute force our way out of.
Recent studies shows that it’s concerning actually. The conservative culture makes a come back, more zealous than ever.
IMO this is because there is no alternative. Men are only told what they can’t be, yet everything works for the way they used to be, which they can’t anymore. This is a cultural problem to solve. Men and women need to build a new ideal man. Or like for women they need to accept more diversity for men, but that will not replace the lack of a proper model. In brief, we need a new kind of James bond that’s not an asshole.
Yes!! Hear hear! That’s what I’m trying to say. Inclusivity is inclusive, you share the problems too.
I love this:
Men and women need to build a new ideal man.
Just beautifully put.
Hey if you have the time to spare, could you perhaps throw up some criticism of my OP? What am I saying wrong that people are misunderstanding me here?
I’d love to be able to express these ideas in a way that does not make people angry. I think they are important ideas to share.
It is a difficult task, especially because some feminists absolutely do not want to hear anything about men if it’s not that they are rapists or privileged. They also theorised that men (no nuance made) will fight tooth and nails to keep their privileges.
It’s not all feminists obviously. But the idea lurks that it is a similar fight between proletariat vs capitalists.
Lgbt+ movement succeeded in aggregating and allying with the feminists. It was easy because they are indeed harassed by the patriarcal model even harder than women.
The problem is for white cis male to join the movement. It would almost be a betrayal to recognize anything to them, because they are the archtypical enemy.
The problem is that by painting all white cis males as the enemy, you don’t leave them a choice than to be your enemy.
I’m only a guy on Internet so I don’t know what the solution go this will be. What I imagine is that either some white cis males will finally be recognized as a different group than the fascist actually opposed to women or any other minority rights, or the feminist themselves focalise their hatred on the people who are actually fighting them.
The root of the problem imo is the focalisation on the white cis male. It’s mistaken because there are as many conservative women as those men, and it’s unrelated to skin color. We should call them for what they are imo: the Conservative, bourgeois and fascists. This way the incels and nice guys can be themselves and helped out of the fascists claws.
Why must there be a model? An ideal, a Bond? Feminism let me be whatever, it’s only men that desparately try to define the sexes and lust after ideals. Just be people and stop obsessing about maleness and it’s need for perfection.
you may not need a model. But many people, men or women, do need one. It’s not a men things. Many women take models. And many problem of sex discrepancy in science for example, that is why there isn’t more women in science, is supposed to be due to the lack of models.
So maybe you don’t need a model, or maybe you had a model without realising it. But not everyone is like you.
I mean, “obsessing about maleness” when women magazines are what they are is quite ironic really.
feminism let me be whatever
Amazing, true progress. This is how society should be.
Did you ever stop to ask yourself if it’s done the same for men? Or are large parts of the male population still subject to macho stereotypes?
Hear hear.
One love.
Help me understand it then? I’m not here saying: “nothing will change my opinion” I’m literally asking for help to do that.
If the film is not about the realisation that Barbieland is a game and that the real world doesn’t need to be ‘Kens vs Barbies’ then what is the massage please?
“You misunderstand a movie, and everything else.” Are you living up to your responsibilities here or just expecting change without any effort?
Where you’re wrong is that this would be a critique of feminism. Feminists never demanded every night be girls night. They never asked for a world of Kens vs Barbies. Society is still very unequal in favor of men and it’s insane to me to claim feminism has left men behind somehow.
Well, are boys and young men exposed to feminist role models or are they not? I say no, not to any meaningful degree, and they should be.
? Sorry, I can’t decipher your autocorrect
Yikes! Fixed it. Thank you!
Feminism isn’t just about women; it’s about everybody. You mention a macho upbringing - that’s one of the many things that feminism is trying to fight. Telling boys that they have to be “strong,” be the breadwinner, can’t have emotions - these things are actively harmful to the boys. Everyone needs feminism - it’s about letting everyone be anything.
You may have heard the term “toxic masculinity” at some point. If not, I recommend doing some reading on it.
I’m not sure how you missed that this is precisely the point I’m making?
Sorry if my post was not clear enough but yes I totally agree, your post is I guess a less confusing way of saying what intended to convey.
Who the hell has been telling men to hunt, gather and kill or be killed? What society are you living in? And no, i do not have a responsibility to carve aout a space for men (between my legs perhaps?). What the fuck are you on about? If men so desparately need role models and someone to look up too that’s their problem. They could try just being good people but i guess that’s too confusing.
You’re part of the problem.
You want change without changing yourself.
It isn’t going to work and it will make you bitter and angry.
Like this post of yours right here.
