Maybe the US system doesn’t work that way because people keep screaming at everyone who doesn’t vote for their one party vs the only other. It’s really odd to claim that your vote matters and then yell at anyone who tries to do anything with their vote other than to guarantee their vote for one of two parties. If the argument is to preserve democracy, well, it already looks like we don’t have democracy.
It’s because we have a winner-takes-all electoral college system. It encourages domination not cooperation and self-perpetuates because it stifles ideological competition. It’s not merely a social phenomenon.
How are we supposed to break out of such a system? Both parties benefit from this system and will never agree to change it. About a decade ago in Canada, the liberal party claimed they’d carry out election reform if they won. They ended up winning big time, but they refused to do what they promised because it would threaten the power structure.
Your democracy is at stake and you are yelling that we should do democracy harder instead of attempting to keep the democracy destroyer out of office. Carry on though and personally insult me like you did in your last comment.
I’m not American so I don’t have a dog in this fight.
You’re not American and don’t have a dog in the fight, but you want to explain the electoral system that I participate in to me. Not sure where I insulted you or yelled (no exclamation point or all-caps/bolded words in sight), so it seems like you’ve completely misinterpreted my post. I didn’t say we should “democracy harder”, I said we don’t have a democracy and that it’s just a facade where people get really passionate about voting for one of only two viable options. Kind of hard to save something that doesn’t exist. Will things get worse under republicans? Absolutely. Will democrats do anything about that? Absolutely not. They’ll keep the office warm until the next time republicans inevitably win back power in this crooked system.
I love that you lot complain that it’s not REAL democracy because the DNC is so sneaky behind the scenes, and then in the same breath demand that the DNC undemocratically appoint someone as their candidate who appeals to you and your fellows, voters be damned.
And you wonder why everyone thinks of you as fascists.
It’s the duty of the party to nominate an electable candidate is it not? They had a farce of a primary this year, so the only hope left is a hail mary out of the convention.
It’s the duty of the party to nominate an electable candidate is it not?
Oh, so now you DON’T care about democracy in the party. How convenient, how your ideals change depending on which allows you to scream “BOTH SIDES” the loudest.
Democracy in the party flew the coop when we didn’t have a real primary this year. Having a single candidate is not democracy. It’s a rubber stamp oligarchy.
Right, trump vs another candidate. Biden is awful and is the reason why the election is in any kind of jeopardy. But when trump wins in november there’ll be no self awareness to be found, that people were promoting an unviable candidate that no one likes.
Progressives are excessively difficult to win support from the Dems or Reps due to campaign interests and media spin. The only candidates that recieve enough backing are the ones that pose no danger to the wealthy Capitalists.
I agree that organizing is fantastic, but the sheer difference in quantity of Capital is why it is necessary for a leftist party to focus primarily on delivering needs externally to the system before attempting to win over local and state level elections. Grow from the bottom up.
You need to look up present income inequality statistics. Billionaires are insane and inflation is making normal working class people tighten their budgets a lot. It’s a very uphill battle or outfund billionaires.
A movement that helped secure the ADA with their support, and had the full weight of the state security apparatus turned against them. An organization that was so unimpactful the FBI assassinated their leaders.
They also started a lunch program that spread to multiple cities and was successful enough that the government stepped in to start one of their own so that they could not look as bad in comparison.
Loving the Black Panther Party for having a nice ten points and a horrible record of not actually accomplishing anything substantial and murdering members of their own organization for not being sufficiently pure is about what I expected of an ML.
Helping children not starve isn’t anything substantial, got it. They had a lasting impact, and the US murdered Fred Hampton because the organization was effective.
Never said I was an ML, but you sure do love lying about others when you get scratched.
That would require getting cozy with billionaires who are opposed to progressive causes. How is that supposed to work? What you’re proposing is like starting a game of monopoly where the other players own 90% of the properties already and claiming that if you just play along and hopefully land on properties that aren’t already owned then maybe you can trade your way up to establish yourself. How likely do you think this is to work?
The other options include: continuing to be a fringe platform, overthrowing a global system.
Materially, I think developing ever stronger unions (labor and otherwise) who can pool resources to compete in politics. Seconded by a strong push to win many more low level grassroots seats. Conservatives are winning these seats. By winning the lower seats, bureaucratic maneuvers are easier, and consensus is “cheaper”.
We had a strong labor movement but it took decades of fighting, the largest economic crisis ever, and two world wars, among other things to establish a middle class as we used to know it. It took much less time for the rich to dismantle that. I agree we should keep working to push the power of labor, but reaching our goals while working within the system is going to be impossible. There’s a reason why it took such catastrophic events to actually get anywhere.
Well then we can still pressure Biden to do the right thing. The election is still 6 months away, not next week. Blind support for Biden will not make anything better.
And that you only have the option (realistically) to vote for people that other voters want to be in politics. As a conversation with other voters will quickly show, is a depressing concept.
Hmmm, today i will attack any attempts to run a better candidate against trump
The US system doesn’t work that way. You have a choice between two people. A vote for a third party is a vote not counted.
Maybe the US system doesn’t work that way because people keep screaming at everyone who doesn’t vote for their one party vs the only other. It’s really odd to claim that your vote matters and then yell at anyone who tries to do anything with their vote other than to guarantee their vote for one of two parties. If the argument is to preserve democracy, well, it already looks like we don’t have democracy.
It’s because we have a winner-takes-all electoral college system. It encourages domination not cooperation and self-perpetuates because it stifles ideological competition. It’s not merely a social phenomenon.
How are we supposed to break out of such a system? Both parties benefit from this system and will never agree to change it. About a decade ago in Canada, the liberal party claimed they’d carry out election reform if they won. They ended up winning big time, but they refused to do what they promised because it would threaten the power structure.
Your democracy is at stake and you are yelling that we should do democracy harder instead of attempting to keep the democracy destroyer out of office. Carry on though and personally insult me like you did in your last comment.
I’m not American so I don’t have a dog in this fight.
You’re not American and don’t have a dog in the fight, but you want to explain the electoral system that I participate in to me. Not sure where I insulted you or yelled (no exclamation point or all-caps/bolded words in sight), so it seems like you’ve completely misinterpreted my post. I didn’t say we should “democracy harder”, I said we don’t have a democracy and that it’s just a facade where people get really passionate about voting for one of only two viable options. Kind of hard to save something that doesn’t exist. Will things get worse under republicans? Absolutely. Will democrats do anything about that? Absolutely not. They’ll keep the office warm until the next time republicans inevitably win back power in this crooked system.
You’re so engrossed in talking over the other person that you failed to read what they said.
They said “Run a better candidate against” Trump which IS possible to do by the DNC.
Not in this election, it’s far too late
It’s so frustrating to talk to democrat supporters. You guys should remember how that cost the DNC 2016.
No like, I’m ready to vote for a competitive progressive candidate, but building that candidate will take time. Years.
The next best thing is not-republican.
You guys had Bernie Sanders.
Yeah, and a majority of voters didn’t turn out for him. You think I was fucking chuffed to go through that twice in a row?
With this level of support and rhetoric:
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/chris-matthews-bernie-sanders-public-executions-949802/
Lmao did you mean ‘reality observers’?
The primary is over, Jack.
The “reality observers” that gave trump the election in 2016? Brilliant strategy, “reality observer”.
What fucking primary, the dnc did their level best to not allow a real one
What primary? There was some bullshit formality thing. But there wasn’t any actual primary.
The convention absolutely can select a different candidate.
I love that you lot complain that it’s not REAL democracy because the DNC is so sneaky behind the scenes, and then in the same breath demand that the DNC undemocratically appoint someone as their candidate who appeals to you and your fellows, voters be damned.
And you wonder why everyone thinks of you as fascists.
It’s the duty of the party to nominate an electable candidate is it not? They had a farce of a primary this year, so the only hope left is a hail mary out of the convention.
Oh, so now you DON’T care about democracy in the party. How convenient, how your ideals change depending on which allows you to scream “BOTH SIDES” the loudest.
Democracy in the party flew the coop when we didn’t have a real primary this year. Having a single candidate is not democracy. It’s a rubber stamp oligarchy.
Right, trump vs another candidate. Biden is awful and is the reason why the election is in any kind of jeopardy. But when trump wins in november there’ll be no self awareness to be found, that people were promoting an unviable candidate that no one likes.
This election is already full.
I hope progressives are building a candidate for the next election. It takes years
I still remember 2020, progressives were bartering “just elect Biden this time, then next election we can elect AOC or Bernie”.
And yet they didn’t build those candidates.
I’m not bartering anything. I’m looking at the options directly ahead, and commenting about what I wish could be in the next rounds
any attempts have been immediately quashed by folks like you.
Miss.
miss what? Im watching you do it in real time.
“miss what?” Yup
Progressives are excessively difficult to win support from the Dems or Reps due to campaign interests and media spin. The only candidates that recieve enough backing are the ones that pose no danger to the wealthy Capitalists.
Progressives should take that backing as their chief objective, and start building systems to win. That means media and financial backing.
How do you get media and financial backing if you fundamentally go against that which maintains their funding?
I agree that leftists should organize, but more along the lines of the Black Panther Party or other groups actively making a difference first.
You develop funding from sources you find more ethical: macro union agreements.
I agree that organizing is fantastic, but the sheer difference in quantity of Capital is why it is necessary for a leftist party to focus primarily on delivering needs externally to the system before attempting to win over local and state level elections. Grow from the bottom up.
You need to look up present income inequality statistics. Billionaires are insane and inflation is making normal working class people tighten their budgets a lot. It’s a very uphill battle or outfund billionaires.
The Black Panther Party is your standard for making a difference.
Yeah, that’s about what I expected.
Not understanding the importance of the black panther party is about what I expected from you.
The group that came in at the tail end of the civil rights movement, murdered its own members, and then was effectively shuttered by the FBI?
THAT’S your standard for success?
A movement that helped secure the ADA with their support, and had the full weight of the state security apparatus turned against them. An organization that was so unimpactful the FBI assassinated their leaders.
They also started a lunch program that spread to multiple cities and was successful enough that the government stepped in to start one of their own so that they could not look as bad in comparison.
Actually they also got gun control passed
Yes, directly supporting and feeding children, supported gay rights, and promoted leftist theory and community building is good.
Hating on the Black Panther Party is about what I expected of you, funny enough.
Loving the Black Panther Party for having a nice ten points and a horrible record of not actually accomplishing anything substantial and murdering members of their own organization for not being sufficiently pure is about what I expected of an ML.
Helping children not starve isn’t anything substantial, got it. They had a lasting impact, and the US murdered Fred Hampton because the organization was effective.
Never said I was an ML, but you sure do love lying about others when you get scratched.
That would require getting cozy with billionaires who are opposed to progressive causes. How is that supposed to work? What you’re proposing is like starting a game of monopoly where the other players own 90% of the properties already and claiming that if you just play along and hopefully land on properties that aren’t already owned then maybe you can trade your way up to establish yourself. How likely do you think this is to work?
The other options include: continuing to be a fringe platform, overthrowing a global system.
Materially, I think developing ever stronger unions (labor and otherwise) who can pool resources to compete in politics. Seconded by a strong push to win many more low level grassroots seats. Conservatives are winning these seats. By winning the lower seats, bureaucratic maneuvers are easier, and consensus is “cheaper”.
We had a strong labor movement but it took decades of fighting, the largest economic crisis ever, and two world wars, among other things to establish a middle class as we used to know it. It took much less time for the rich to dismantle that. I agree we should keep working to push the power of labor, but reaching our goals while working within the system is going to be impossible. There’s a reason why it took such catastrophic events to actually get anywhere.
Well then we can still pressure Biden to do the right thing. The election is still 6 months away, not next week. Blind support for Biden will not make anything better.
Never said that. I’m only discussing election day in my comment, that’s pretty obvious
Have you been voting in all of your local elections and primarys?
If not, then you haven’t done anything at all to get a better candidate against anyone.
I’ve been voting in local and state elections for the last 24 years. When will that produce a better candidate?
Not during this election.
I can’t wait until I’m like 90 and I actually get to vote for someone I like.
That soon? You’re being too optimistic.
The inherent problem at the core of it all is you’ll only have the option to vote for people that want to be in politics.
And that you only have the option (realistically) to vote for people that other voters want to be in politics. As a conversation with other voters will quickly show, is a depressing concept.