Some worry that New York City’s crackdown on unsafe cyclists leaves them facing greater consequences than drivers, even though cars cause more fatalities.
Some worry that New York City’s crackdown on unsafe cyclists leaves them facing greater consequences than drivers, even though cars cause more fatalities.
Unpopular opinion, both sides should stop running fucking red lights.
Cars running red lights = driver slamming on the gas trying to beat the yellow. 3000kg of steel and glass travelling at 60+km/hr in a crowded city
Bikes “running” red lights = riders looking both ways and coasting through when it’s clear… 100kg of flesh and aluminium going 10km/hr
These are not even remotely close to the same levels of danger…
So while everyone should follow the rules, enforcement should focus on those with the potential to do the most damage
FWIW this is not how it works in Philadelphia. Here, a lot of cyclists just sail through red lights and stop intersections without stopping first and without even looking to see if there’s any cross-traffic first. As an avid cyclist myself, it absolutely blows my mind how often they do this and somehow avoid dying. There are a lot of bike fatalities here, but it’s almost always the result of large trucks turning right across bike lanes and flattening somebody they never saw.
Sure, there are those crazy bike messenger types blowing through red lights at full speed
But thats not the majority of offenders. And still nowhere NEAR the danger of cars doing the same thing, even at lower speeds.
That’s normal. Coasting through at low speed uses much less energy than coming to a stop and good bike infrastructure takes that into account. Cars and pedestrians can stop and start easily, bikes, very much not so, so you design intersections, any conflict point, such that bikes merely slow down. The Dutch are brilliant at this with traffic lights which can actually detect who’s coming.
My personal approach to cycling is that I never expect anyone to notice me, a result of decades of practice with semi-sensible German bike infrastructure. Yes I’m going to cross on red but noone will have to change their behaviour, react to me in any way. Be like water.
Yep don’t be there. Even if they’re looking out for pedestrians those are slow, you are fast(er), which means that in the time between them looking and them turning you can make it from invisible to the danger zone.
Side note right turns should not be allowed on red, at least not without a sign specifically allowing it at a particular intersection. In 99.9% of cases it’s unsafe.
These are E-bikes we’re talking about. They can be quite fast. Some can do 50-60 even. Killing people is certainly possible. Requiring both to obey traffic signals, isn’t unreasonable.
Pretty sure in the EU they are supposed to be limited to 25kmh, which is the upper speed limit for bike lanes too
Speed-pedelecs are allowed to go 45kmh and are allowed both on bike lanes and car lanes in the Netherlands. They have a license plate as well, looks like a regular ebike.
In that case the Netherlands is ignoring EU law, which now very clearly defines a regular e-bike: 25km/h, 250W max output, no throttle.
PS: clarification - if they have a license plate then obviously they’re not regular e-bikes. Seems to me crazy to just allow them in bike lanes.
This is the same as in Belgium, where the faster e-bikes are counted as light mopeds. Max speed of 45km/h, and they must use the bike lane whenever the road speed limit exceeds 50km/h, and the road if not. Most of our city centers are 30km/h speed limit, which also counts for these e-bikes, just as all other motorized traffic.
In Belgium I saw petrol mopeds on bike lanes as well
And they are required to, depending on their motor size, following the same rules. So basically a fast e-bike (spedelec) and petrol mopeds are counted as the same type of vehicle.
i’ve never understood the dislike for mopeds on bike paths (let’s not talk about lanes, bike lanes should not exist), it’s only a problem if they go too fast, which bikes can and will do as well.
Sure but you must see that speeding is far easier for a motorized vehicle than for a bicycle.
They don’t so much have a speed limit but they’re required to stop giving you a boost at 25 km/h. Anything that uses a motor to go faster needs a license plate and everything.
At least in Germany bike lanes don’t have a speed limit, you can drive as fast as you want as long as it’s safe, you’re in control, etc. Especially relevant when going downhill.
Sunday or leisurely drivers will go 10 to 25km/h, when you’re fit, the road surface is good and the bike built for it sustaining 35km/h isn’t much of an issue, fastest I ever went on my mountain bike with semi-slicks (so no racing transmission but no unnecessary friction losses either), on flat ground, was 38km/h. But that’s pushing it for the sake of pushing it, my average top speed is just over 30. No lycra, no race bike.
I’ll take a hit from an ebike over a speeding car any day of the week
I would take a hit from a jogger over a person on an ebike any day of the week.
I’ll take a hit from the bong over a jogger any day of the week.
They also weigh as much as their rider sometimes. Easily 300+ lbs with a full grown man on them.
Please show me an ebike that weighs 150 lbs…
Easier to show you a full grown man who weighs 300+ pounds all by himself …
I weigh 225 and an Aventon that fits me is 75. 300.
Great example for a bike that “weighs as much as the rider” genius.
It was two separate examples. Kids ride these things and weigh less than the bike. But also the combo can exceed 300 lb.
Yes, if we compare the most dangerous example of a driver running a red light with the safest example of a cyclist doing so, the driver looks worse.
Obviously cars running red lights is more dangerous but this is pretty disingenuous way to frame it.
Ok, lets do the worst case scenario for a bike…the bike BLOWS through the intersection at 60km/h like those crazy bike messengers on youtube… It still has only a tiny fraction of the kinetic energy of a car and low probability of killing or maiming someone.
Have you seen a person get hit by a bike at 60km/h? Watch pro bike racing. It happens once in a while (opi omi lady) . Most of the time the victim gets up and walks away. Worst case they end up in the hospital with broken bones.
Have you seen a person get hit by vehicle at 60? I haven’t (thank god) but 25% chance of death and 50% chance of severe injury (i would imagine life altering)
People should not be licenced to operate a vehicle if they cant understand basic physics and the VAST gap in danger between drivers not following the rules and cyclists not following the rules
I would imagine a bike going on red failing to notice a car going perfectly legal on green, forcing the car to swerve into pedestrians would be worst case
I agree completely.
10 kph is about 6 mph, which is walking speed. Cycling would be closer to twice that, or more.
Nah, walking speed is ~5kph, and a good pace on a bike is about 20kph
That’s 4x the speed and thus 16x the kinetic energy. It’s quite a big difference.
Yes, like I said, cycling would be closer to 20 kph, which is twice 10 kph.
Your point?
The numbers they pulled out of their ass are off by at least a factor of two.
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Then lights should turn green for my bike, instead of me having to wait for a car to active the sensor on order to cross.
Some sensors in my city detect my bike, some only detect it if I tilt it almost right against the ground, and some don’t detect it at all.
You bet I’ll gladly run a red light if it won’t ever turn green for me.
In my city, I can trigger a traffic signal on my bike by going on the coil that senses the car. This is probably intentional given that the city also puts markings to show that bikes can trigger the sensor, though it does not appear to be any sort of special sensor. No idea if it’s natural that the coil can detect my bike or whether my city specifically tubed the system to detect bikes.
It used to be that those coils had trouble detecting motorbikes
I was gonna say I had to park my motorcycle at intersections and hit the crosswalk button before.
Both lights at the end of my residential street cannot detect my motorbike. If I’m heading out from home and there’s no cars around I’m essentially trapped (legally) since they’ve also banned right on red turns in my city.
I’ve had those work in other cities, but not this one. I’m also not going to dismount to push a button with a toddler on the back.
So brave.
I doubt that’s unpopular.
It should be, because it’s actually less safe for bikes to come to a full stop at red lights and stop signs.
Safer when it is legalized. If I as a driver know bikes are allowed to go through stops, then I expect it and adjust accordingly. If it’s not legal then I expect them to stop like everyone else and am surprised when they don’t.
Very interesting and counterintuitive.
It is at first, but it makes sense when you consider that bikes take longer to come up to speed than cars do, and have a much more limited capacity to get out of the way when they’re not at speed. So if you make bikes lose and regain that speed many times while riding, multiplied by many bikers, eventually one of them is going to wind up encountering a driver that’s not paying attention while they’re leaving a stop sign.
I’m sure that’s not the only reason, but I’d be surprised if it wasn’t a reason.
These are E-bikes. Some are practically low power motorcycles. All that is also true for motorcycles, they have to obey traffic signals.
Where are motorcycles limited to 25 kph, the way bicycles (including e-bikes) are? There is also an inherent weight difference between a motorcycle and a bike, even an e-bike, which changes how dangerous they are.
You realize that stop signs and stop lights are two completely different traffic controls and are used in completely different traffic situations, right?
Did you have a point? Data shows it’s safer to cyclists to yield and not stop at both.
treat traffic lights as stop signs*
Your source says that bikes should still come to a full stop at red lights though?
Doesn’t mean you can’t proceed after stopping despite the light still being red. It says that is better than actually obeying the red light and stopping till it turns green.
Nobody said they couldn’t. The comment I was responding to said that studies show that it’s safer for bikes to not come to a full stop at red lights, and I correctly pointed out that that’s completely false.
Edit: you yourself wrote a comment saying basically the exact same thing I did - why the heck are you trying to nitpick me here?
Yeah, just clarifying.
Edit: I’m not trying to be hostile; I’m just trying my best to be helpful… Please tell me if there’s something I could improve on.
Name one person who thinks the opposite
Next you’re going to say #AllLivesMatter
Indeed all lives matter, but the All Lives Matter is a strawman movement that misses the point
@Aatube @aramova
As a pedestrian trying to walk my dogs, I 100% agree with you.
Shit, problem solved. Sometimes we need a genius idea to figure things out